Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

I thought the OP made some good points and gives food for thought. I don't abide by it all myself in terms of make up, shaving etc which is why I'm not exactly radfem of the year. But it's important to have these conversations and work through it I think. Thank you for the discussion.

Well, I'm skimming this in a cursory manner whilst also browsing other things in a cursory manner.
Have just googled Stockholm syndrome to see if it is called this in Stockholm and seemingly it is and is sometimes called Helsinki Syndrome, due to the fact it is referenced in Die Hard, apparently.
But, fascinatingly, there is also a London syndrome, characterised by resistance at every point. Which is somehow more appealing. Perhaps an alternating approach keeps you sane, keeps them guessing, cuts you some freedom.
Can't get that exercised about make up/shaving. Each to their own.
Interesting post Op.

the discussion about sex worker is pretty much always disgusting

because its always women who feel both somehow better than and threatened by sex workers...again bodies of adult women being policed by the well meaning saviours

It's pretty patronising to assume that none of these women have insight into the contradictions. All of us are living in an imperfect world and making compromises. Everyone picks their battles. Personally I would not have cosmetic surgery but I do wear make up. Another women draws the line somewhere else. It's incredibly narrow-minded to believe that you have found the correct line and that anyone who makes different choices is wrong and/or a patsy of the patriarchy.

Apologies, hit 'post' too soon and edit feature not working. My other suggestion for a less fighty discussion is to avoid referring to dissent as 'hate' less than a dozen posts in.

I file this kind of authoritarian 'I know best' attitude in the same place as the posts telling me it's my duty as a feminist to vote Labour.

I think that, if you're hoping for a theoretical discussion, you might have more success if you don't start off by suggesting you know what's good for women better than some of them know themselves, and maybe avoid what can or should be done when some women don't comply. And doncbe do women

Does anyone actually think that? Like, if you meet some random 17 year old in the street, and said, do you know different cultures have different beauty standards, they will find that idea surprising?

I think that might be a bit unusual.

I didn't say anything about banning.

It's being suggested that it's problematic that women want to look different than men and use fashion in order to emphasize that, and that they "don't know what's good for them".

That suggests the OP thinks society should discourage that kind of thing.

There have been societies that did so, in the name of enforcing a kind of uniformity between the sexes.

It doesn't work though. Some individuals don't care, but overall, people, especially young ones in their early sexual prime, won't do it, they will find ways to differerntiate.

It's reasonable to talk about where specific practices are detrimental, some obviously can be. But that's not what the OP seemed to be getting at, but instead the whole package of women wanting to do anything, right down to spending five minutes putting on make-up in the morning.

It comes off as pretty patronizing. Not to mention the inability to understand why people might disagree about politics.

'Healthy' a very commonly judged desirable indicator, yes. As is 'sexually available' and 'fertile'. This is NOT to say there is anything inherently wrong with making these judgements, we all make judgements all the time. We all live among and with other people and we are all constantly calibrating and assessing.

The problem is believing that our time and context dependent judgements are inherently true.

I think this is only true to a point.

There are certain things in fashion or not, like the Kardashian butt vs skinny butt. (Though fashion isn't always a guide to what men find attractive - the question of what most women are going for comes up there I guess.)

And I think there has been in some ways a rise in beauty standards due to increasing health in the population. Someone with teeth that would not have been unusual on tv in 1960 would have to get them done today to get the same kinds of roles, and the general population also has much better teeth and health overall. So people expect that and what is unusual is noticible.

But there is a ton of overlap in male and female beauty across cultures, basically good skin, healthy hair, a symmetrical face and body, a good smell, and a somewhat characteristic male or female shape.

then you could chose to either leave your partner or change your appearance

and yes, better looking people are more successful - partly due to halo effect, partly due to their own self esteem, however - there always be better looking people, even with hairy legs

'Good luck stamping that out.'

Again, who has suggested it needs to be 'stamped out'?

Criticising something, discussing it, questioning it is not the same as deriding it or suggesting it should be 'banned'.

Or perhaps not? Do we perhaps live in a society with sexist expectations? We can choose to reject them and fight against them, but that doesn't mean that at present they are not there. Look simply at the fact that makeup and heels are marketed and pushed on women in a way they are not on men. @Precipice

And yet whenever men are featured on these ad campaign (whether they're trans identified or not) this website blows up with post after post about how men are taking over our things! and how women are being erased! Etc

There's pretty much no way to appease people who do not want to be appeased because then what could they complain on online forums about?

Some pretty varied things are in the OP.

Political stuff - I think the obvious answer is that some women don't agree with you about what's in their best interest, but also many people also think other things, besides their personal best interest, or that of women, is the only consideration.

I'm not sure why that's hard to understand tbh. You don't have to agree about things with someone to understand that views vary. And does anyone actually believe that self-interest ought to be our only consideration?

As for make-up and such. Sure, there is something there, but not easy to draw a lone around. It is normal, as a social, sexually dimorphic species, for humans to have an interest in differentiating ourselves by sex. How that looks in a specific culture will vary, but people do it even when polite society tries to tell them not to. Good luck stamping that out.

It's also tricky to draw a line around where beauty standards go too far. I'd put cosmetic surgery on the "too far" list, mainly due to the risks involved but also I think is supports very unhealthy attitudes to beauty in society at large. Make-up, not so much, it's not that expensive unless you want it to be, many many don't bother with it, and it's non-invasive. Shaving body hair, maybe in between - but more and more men do that too, so is it still a sexist problem as such?

I understand why people find "choice feminism" too simplistic. But when you have people convinced that other's having different views on some topics amounts to "not knowing what's good for them" my inclination is just to say fuck off.

while i know we have this fluffy bubble online where we tell each other that everyone is beautiful, and personally i don't believe there is an objective beauty, but some people will find ua ugly, while others will think we're bees' knees

Interesting thread with astonishing angry defensiveness (and I suspect projection) from some posters.

The idea that those women who don’t wear make-up are jealous of those who do and are judging those women as “lesser” is utterly bizarre.

I don’t wear make-up and kind of admire those who can be bothered and are skilled at it, while also being able to perceive it as unfortunate that there are women who are so unhappy with the way they look without make-up that they can’t leave the house or face even seeing family without it. That sounds like a shed load of pressure.

I feel like this was intended as a theoretical discussion about differences in societal expectations, but has been taken as personal criticism by some, which suggests they are not as secure in their choices as they claim. If they were, they probably wouldn’t care.

I don’t think people are ugly either. “Not pretty” maybe. You notice when people have acne or bad teeth, or they’re old but it isn’t that they’re ugly it’s that they have a medical issue.

Same goes with names. It's OK for a girl to be called Billy/Billie, but not so much for a boy to be called Hilary or whatever name is currently deemed to be more of a feminine name.
You throw like a girl is an insult and I can't really think of an equivalent for women.

"and whether you will care about how you are perceived"

Better looking people are more successful in life. This is backed up by stats, not just my opinion.

"I've had a partner who hated my fashion choices - but whether I cared was up to me"

Sure, but if my partner wasn't attracted to me, that would have a very negative impact on my life.

Actually, let me refine that a bit: I'm affected by ... etc. I suppose we are all affected to different degrees.

Yes, yes, you've somehow grown up totally immune to socialising norms, except ones you've chosen to adopt of your own free uninfluenced will. Hopefully you've also chosen to adopt of your own free will all social norms of acceptable behaviour out in public and can therefore behave 'normally' in society despite having been raised in a protective bubble that made you impervious to social messaging.

Or perhaps not? Do we perhaps live in a society with sexist expectations? We can choose to reject them and fight against them, but that doesn't mean that at present they are not there. Look simply at the fact that makeup and heels are marketed and pushed on women in a way they are not on men. Does that, to you, not affect the way in which these 'choices' are made?

No, I'm just as affected by societal standards and expectations as everyone else is. I can however recognise that UK 2023 beauty standards are not the same as Ancient Greek beauty standards, or Papua New Guinean tribal beauty standards, etc.

The fact that something is arbitrarily imposed by a society doesn't mean it is without power.

Well, okay, but the bigger principle here is that there is no such thing as 'ugly'.

So you think everyone looks beautiful and you feel the same level of physical appeal in everyone you see?

the problem is whether or not these women do actually feel like they need to do it and would leaving the house without makeup would genuinely affect their self-esteem, while in reality world is filled with less then perfect people

Not quite. The idea that there is such a thing as 'perfect' or 'less than perfect' or 'better' or 'worse' looking is the problem. Qualitative judgements of appearances is the problem.