Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

I’d always assumed that corsets were at least partly about advertising reproductive viability via hip-waist ratio…?

Ok this thread is still captivating me!

Some women like wearing make up and it isn't personally harming then. Yes. AND some women do hate their appearance and feel they need to wear makeup because they are scared and ashamed. They're not doing it for joy. They are spending time and money and emotional energy on it. Is this trivial? Possibly. I liked what a pp said about the fact this is fairly low risk, in comparison to say cosmetic surgery. But at the same they are part of the same system so I think it's fair to include both things in the same analysis.

OP said it was strangulation that started her thinking about this. Can the same be said there too? Some women enjoy choking as part of having sex and can do it in a safe way. But some women it seems now feel pressured to let their partner do this.

Hmmm is the problem here that we are talking about three types of women?

1. Women who enjoy an activity and it isn't harming them individually
2. Women who feel pressured to do something and it is harming them and they know it
3. Women who do something without realising it is actually harming them

I suppose what I am hearing is that people feel patronised when it is assumed they are group 3 and not group 1. Fair enough. And that people don't have to consider the rest of the group in their personal cost benefit analysis. True as well. There's also something for me about psychological resistance to being told what to do. As others have said, once you trigger that resistance it's unlikely anyone will listen even if you have irrefutable evidence.

OP I liked that you posted without too much thought. It seems much more fruitful than thinking everything out first. Being baffled by something seems like an open place to start.
Are you the canary in the mine or someone out of touch with other people's reality? Can both be true?

Name changed for this as a bit embarrassing.

I fake tan regularly, dye my hair and wear make up.

I do all of these things almost exclusively because I have vitiligo. I have very noticeable bright white patches all over my body, including my genital region and my scalp (causing irregular bright white patches of hair growth)
I shave off my pubic hair because it again, it grows with irregular, bright white patches.

If I don't do these things (and I've tried) I look odd. Not normal. And I get comments, looks and unkind things said to me. I get stared at on beaches, on dates, people have asked me if my skin condition is "catching" and are worried to touch me.
Can you imagine getting naked for the first time with someone and then seeing you have cruella deville hair down there? I can tell you the reaction is often not kind.

So I do all these things not because I want to look pornified or stand out. I do it because I want to blend in. Look normal and not strange. Not have to explain myself constantly.
Yes, it's shit that the majority of people are either ignorant or misinformed about my condition, but I can't change society at large and I'm not going to throw my self esteem under the bus and feel constantly shit being stared at, questioned and having to explain that I'm not infectious.

I certainly don't do these things and then think I am better than those that don't. The pathetic thing is I do these things because I am jealous of those that don't have to. I wish EVERY SINGLE DAY that I didn't have to. Every day. It's time consuming, embarrassing and extremely expensive. All just to blend in and not stand out.

I absolutely don't believe any woman thought about what men think about her eyebrows

especially since women do so many things that men openly find unattractive and yet most of us does not actually care about it

what about the fact that often what is marketed as a beauty standards goes against what men generally find attractive? until, of course, they too get used to it by exposure

and it is not even a new thing - history is full of men moaning about women doing things to their appearance that they, the all so important men, didn't like

take corsets for example: these are commonly associated with torture devices invented for pleasure of men. Instead these were simple undergarments intended to keep your boobs in place and for to give support for your 1000 layers of clothing. Tight-lacing was a trend women engaged in and men viciously mocked and criticised

I genuinely think that when women change their appearance they do it to look like other women they find pretty, not to be prettier to men

"Nobody is going to convince me that women laminate their eyebrows to resemble fluffy caterpillars for the benefit of men, many of whom mock this trend"

I think it's like any fashion. It looks good to them (from exposure probably) and so they think it looks good to others, including men.

Interesting conversation. I think:

-society and conditioning: from a young age girls are sold the idea that being pretty is one of the highest goal they should aim for

-marketing/advertising: again constant messages reinforcing what women should look like and it being equated to success: ie if you wear make-up, the right clothes, spend a lot of time on your appearance in general then you will get a man, a good job and be happy

-society likes cultivating women's insecurities: if women are taught to obsess about relationship and their looks, they will spend less time focusing on education, developing their intellect and generally getting power for themselves...

-some women don't want to say or do anything to displease men so they support views even if they are harmful to women. Again women are conditioned to be 'nice', 'caring' and put everybody else's needs before theirs. For example it is interesting to see how many women will say nothing about their partner's use of porn, even if they find it objectionable, because they don't want to be seen as 'prudes' or because they believe the idea that all men watch and need to watch porn...

-patriarchal religions: again that helps condition women from a young age as to what their role should be.

I do think though that there is nothing wrong with a woman enjoying spending time on her appearance.

I think what is harmful is the fact that there is too much emphasis on how women should look and what they should be doing to please men still and not enough on the fact that women are equal human beings who should also be valued for their intelligence, skills, personality and so on.

I think things are changing though and It is perfectly right for women to have a choice to present and live as they wish, but the key thing is that this should be a choice and not something that comes out of being forced to conform/follow patriarchal ideas of what a woman should look like and how she should behave.

@Floisme exactly

I also find it dascinating that while everyone agrees women are influenced by society, men and beauty standards by virtue of living in society and being exposed to these standards - we're not just a passive audience. We also create these standards and new trends, and often despite men not for them.

Nobody is going to convince me that women laminate their eyebrows to resemble fluffy caterpillars for the benefit of men, many of whom mock this trend...and yet there is plenty of women who love having fluffy eyebrows. Yes, they probably saw it on someone, likely on social media, and they loved it so now they have it.

Women are also not inherently asexual, and every person with an ounce of lust in them will have some sexual preferences.

Someone else engaging in something you don't like does not mean they were forced to do it by perverted men - women can be perverted too. Sure, you can argue that they had to have been exposed to it in some form at some point. But so were the men they have sex with and so was, clearly , every single person in this thread. Yet we are all able to say "nah, this is not for me". Why do you assume that women who said "I like THAT" were coerced and manipulated?

I worry for them what all the chemicals and gunk is doing to their health and if they don't get eye infections etc. A quick study of food health and hygiene regulations would affirm that whatever gunk is in your mascara wand is disgustingly dangerously loaded with bacteria

Amazing how many PPs on this thread seem to believe that wearing make up will somehow leach into the skin and - what? - turn you into Katie Price?

Everything is made of chemicals. Literally everything. Where is your evidence that make up is harmful? They're not making it out of lead, any more, like the Elizabethans.

Everything you touch or use has bacteria on it, as you instantly contaminate it. If you're worried about a mascara wand, I've got some terrible news about your toothbrush.

Whenever I listen to women lamenting behaviour such as shaving or wearing make up and heels, and discussing what can be done about it, I always wonder what else they would like to control, given half a chance. It is a side to feminism that I want nothing to do with.

@thedankness I remember this thread and I was shocked that posters like you believed that strangulation kink was the problem - not the fact that murders were getting away with their crime because people somehow believed you can accidentally kill someone (no, you can't accidentally strangulate someone while inches away from their face). The woman whose partner asked her to strangulate him probably is not running any risk of killing him by accident.

You blaming the kink, however weird it is, is the same as someone blaming alcohol for rape and saying women should not drink because it's bad for their health and men can use it as an excuse for rape. or are we now saying that having a drink is also for men's benefit and we should stop for a greater good of womankind?

@LittleMissSunshiner depends what sort of heels you're wearing, I guess? But I went to standing gigs in heels and was fine

as for shaving - if I was to enforce my own preferences on the entire world then everyone would be smooth like a dolphin. Fortunately, I neither have the power to do it nor do I care what people do with their bodies...unlike some people

Your worldview would make sense if women were a homogenous group, all with the similar values, concerns and goals. The sisterhood, as it were, doesn't exist. If it does it does so among groups of similar women, not women en masse.

Whilst make-up is fervently being debated now I think we are losing sight of the OP's original and very keen observations which I broadly agree with. , I do think sadly very many women are unenlightened in understanding we are valued as less than men or as less than women if we don't conform to societies or often our own self-imposed rules of what a woman should be. If women truly valued themselves they would not put up with shitty relationships that are laid bare in their toxicity so frequently on here and in 'real' life.

Sadly some women do not understand they are being subjugated to the patriarchy. I was one of these women. I so wanted to be 'normal' and to have what I perceived other women had - In short to conform. I failed as I kicked back against a man who devalued me, threatened me, and hit me whilst pregnant. Had I kept quiet I would probably still be in that relationship.

The 'Freedom programme' aims to teach women what a good relationship looks like. These women are not stupid they are often simply unaware as I was and there are very many of these women.

My relationship with myself and men was certainly in part due to a very abusive childhood; don't underestimate the impact of trauma on women's thoughts feelings and ultimately actions. This is far more of an influence on how women live their lives than whether or not we wear makeup.

@LittleMissSunshiner not really, I like shaving. I can't really imagine myself in a situation in which I'd need to run wearing heels & no they don't hurt my feet. I run 5-15 miles a week in my running trainers so definitely am not restricted in that area of life!

Not much IMO but wouldn't you rather live in a world where not shaving was totally normal and therefore not needed? Just wondering not being argumentative.

Also re heels, I mean I get that some heels are low enough to be mobile and the sort that even dancers wear but actual fancy heels that you can't run in... don't they hurt your feet ? And what if you want to run somewhere or stand up for a few hours or go for a spontaneous walk?

I find heels curious as I imagine people only put them on when they're about to sit down somewhere and then take them off again when they leave. I notice that models often don't wear the huge heels on the runway anymore, they carry the shoes in their hands.

The title of this is confusing.

Women who do these things aren't acting against their own interests, they're just acting against yours and any other woman who feels the way you do. Which is perfectly within their right as free, independent people capable to making their own choices.

I don't think it's feasible, or right for that matter, to expect every woman to consider the entirety of womankind whenever they make a decision. We definitely don't expect that from men.

@LittleMissSunshiner

It's terrifying and also I can relate to having been brainwashed by the porn industry as a very young child due to abuse (when it was printed material as there was no internet) and also sexually violated and exploited by CSA. By the time I got to 16, I mistakenly thought I was empowering myself or taking back my power by acting out sexually and believed I was enjoying it.

Actually I was often being raped because in fact to withstand this insanity I was drinking and drugging to blackout. I paid a high price mentally, psychologically, spiritually, and so did my poor body.

I have worked recovery. I'm also a feminist. I no longer ever have sex with men, I do not find men attractive and never did, I define myself as a gay / lesbian woman. I was acting out what had been imprinted on me by abuse, porn, and the patriarchy.

I find it hard when I know what goes on in the sex industry world that women say hey I'm doing this to be strong and powerful as I don't really agree, in fact I feel sad, but then I'm told it's anti-feminist to criticise someone's work choice. But these women who say this are harming the youngsters whose brains aren't yet fully formed and want to be independent and powerful but are actually victims of severe abuse (young school girls with torn private parts from doing anal and group sex because it's a 'thing' now) so it's a cycle of sickness IMHO. not trying to offend anyone here, just speaking thoughts.

I shave and sometimes wear heels. I wear a bit of make up most days. I like these things. Really confused as to what the problem is with these things op- please explain.

I think it's funny there's a suggestion that women who don't wear make up and high heels etc have subliminal envy or inferiority to those who do

I don't wear make up as I'm naturally very good looking according to the white western patriarchal value system of what women should look like I was born 'lucky' by pure chance. The way I see it, I could have been born in any other human body so it's arbitrary that I'm not a completely different looking person.

My skin is great I stopped washing my face with any products a few years ago. So is my hair great - I also don't wash it with any products the last few years and it's so healthy and shiny. This makes me occasionally feel very smug and superior to those people who can't leave the house without five layers of stuff on their face. I worry for them what all the chemicals and gunk is doing to their health and if they don't get eye infections etc. A quick study of food health and hygiene regulations would affirm that whatever gunk is in your mascara wand is disgustingly dangerously loaded with bacteria.

Although I do admire the peacocks (peahens?) of this world who enjoy making a dramatic make-up statement and enjoy seeing fashionistas in their finery it's not something I have the desire to do personally.

I would never wear shoes I can't walk all day and also run if necessary in. That's just me. Each to their own. I like to walk a lot, I like to be able to leg it if necessary... doesn't everyone? I like my toes not squashed and no bunions or deformities. Do I feel inferior / jealous? Not in the slightest, I'm trying hard not to judge.

When I was a kid I had awful acne for a while and I remember that frantic feeling of not wanting to be looked at and trying to master the art of cover up and make up. Also as a teen being brainwashed into thinking I had to wear a certain thing and have my hair a certain way to be acceptably 'cool' or just 'acceptable' even. I feel so happy not to live in that world and oddly that makes me super cool. People tell me this. And they ask me how I look so young for my age and what I use on my hair and skin. I feel v powerful and rebellious and counter culture and empowered when I say NOTHING at all. I'm older now and I'm proud to be the face of rebelling against the capitalist system that said you can't go out without x, y, z, on or about your person.

I agree with you but I would have more of a bone to pick with the men who insist their children have their name and not their partners (especially if he's not willing to marry her!) and their male friends who would laugh at them if their children didn't have their name and the newspapers that make such a hoo ha when a female celebrity uses her own name for her child.
So glad my son has my name (my ex left while I was still pregnant so easy decision for me!)

Gosh I got a blow dry and wore make up to my c section so that I would like the photos 🫣 But I agree that the patriarchy makes me not like photos of my natural face and hair as much as my made up face!

There are probably lots of things we all do that are culturally expected. There are some things that we question when we stop to think about what they might actually mean. I have no doubt there are things I do or expect others to do that are patriarchal in origin but only think about it when someone like the op asks the question. I like that you make me pause and think.

I also think there are things men are expected to do or not do that is cultural and patriarchal in origin e.g. wearing makeup. Who makes the rules?