Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

@Fynetanksfather I wasn't referring to your comment. I found your comment useful.

@PaintedEgg by order I mean a value system where your choices are somehow seen as worth less than those of others. When I went vegetarian a friend of mine seemed to think I was implying that anyone not veggie was somehow less moral or more stupid than me. All this without me saying anything. Very offended he was. I suppose the thread title was quite baity but mostly this thread has seemed quite open and thoughtful. I think you're totally right about people interpreting other people's choices to fit their own narrative and there have been a lot of posts about that, about not assuming why other people do things. I don't understand why you seem to interpret a message of being told what to do from this. It seems a stretch to me.

On another note, I think permanent and more invasive body modifications are a good example of how people will interpret someone else's choices to fit their own narrative

just ask any woman who had extreme breast augmentation, uses obvious lip filler or is heavily tattooed

men will likely message her (or even approach her in person) to insult her appearance and inform her how they'd never touch her with a 6ft pole, while women will claim she did this for men

@CuriousAlien I never thought a woman complaining about grooming habits and kinks of other women would set up a new order

however, people having an opinion about bodies of other people is a big pet peeve of mine. I never felt inclined to explain to strangers how something they do to their own body may impact wellbeing of them, me and society on a whole and it baffles me when others do it

in simplest terms - i am just as likely to get annoyed at a man telling me to grow out my head hair as I am likely to get annoyed at a woman telling me to grow out my leg hair...as far as I am concerned, my hair (and body as a whole) is none of anyone's business and if this somehow poses a threat to female population of the world then i guess im going to hell 😜

According to OP and some others on here I don't need a man to tell me what to think - just a woman who is of course infinitely better than me because she chooses not to wear the occasional mascara unlike pesky, little handmaid me 🤣

Also @YankSplaining I don't remember the name of the person but I'm sure I saw that too not long ago. Definitely an interesting addition to the discussion.

I could spend a long time replying to this thread, but I’m in bed with pneumonia, so I’ll just say one thing.

More than one detransitioner that I’ve encountered online has said something like, “I’ve always been really interested in makeup and fashion. When I was a regular girl, those interests meant I was shallow and dumb. Once I transitioned, makeup and fashion were seen as ‘edgy, gender-defying’ interests for me to have. Doing literally the exact same things was cool now that I was identifying as male. I’ve gone back to identifying as female, and I have to remind myself every day that I’m not an idiot or ‘bad for feminism’ if I want to wear red lipstick or use concealer.”

I have really enjoyed this thread. The one thing that stands out is that there are as many opinions as there are women. Do we need a man to come along and tell us what to think?

in this case women going along with things listed in the op

Can you not see how this wording and that used by OP just comes across as patronising? I'm not 'going along' with shit and neither are most women who do the things/ believe the things that OP listed 😂

The OP reeks of "women who don't subscribe to my every thought and belief about what's best for us are brainwashed and don't understand what they're doing" and I think all the intelligent, hard working, educated women of this thread who have beef with this (myself included) are entitled to that opinion.

I don’t know if the kind of comment I wrote on first page is referenced here! Maybe, maybe not :)

I answered OP’s Q in good faith just pointing out that how you approach conversations with people can make all the difference in how they respond and how open they are to considering your ideas. OP seemed genuinely frustrated and baffled as to why people didn’t seem to accept her ideas ‘even when the arguments are presented and explained clearly to them’ (paraphrasing)

I think sometimes if people feel someone who considers themselves a better thinker is trying to ‘educate’ them, they will pay no attention because they find you irritating and would prefer to wind you up than have a genuine exchange of ideas. It might not be the ideas they object to at all so much as the way they are being approached.

I thought OP is trying to understand why people resist when she explains these things to them, and seemed to have missed this point

Definitely no offense taken (and I hope none in turn)

I also took the OP as genuinely 'thinking out loud', welcoming debate and alternative views. I agreed with some if it,was in two minds about other bits, but I can't see how, in the round, it could be taken as dogmatic or offensive. It provoked an interesting debate.

I like what you've said.

Perhaps people take offense because they feel like the OP is trying to set up a new social order which puts them at risk of being thrown out of the fold? Which is fascinating since we're mostly imaginary to each other on this type of forum. And also because it seemed to me like a good faith attempt from the op to warn others about risk of harm.

Thanks for the question OP. I think that there's a mixture of nurture and nature for beauty standards and let's face it, the vanity that can come in womanhood - I'm always checking myself out in the mirror. 🤣🤣

I think the gender wars have shown the conservatism of the younger generation in terms of style. Girls with long mermaid hair, boys masculine. I for one welcome the conversation that women are NOT beauty treatments. We've become addicted to them and I wish we had more punky androgynous women of old. It would be better for women, I agree with that.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with a big hairy bush, hairy legs and a tache... Future generations might though.

I'm not anti abortion or many of the other things on your post though. It's not all or nothing.

These are interesting questions, people shouldn't be taking offense it's just a debate.
The short answer is that humans have always been community based and will do whatever it takes to not be thrown out of the fold, in this case women going along with things listed in the OP.

I don't really think you can lump all those things together OP.
Firstly, things like women liking make up; there are many different reasons women wear make up- it's not one identical "slave to the Patriarchy" reason.
I love make-up. I am happy to go out and about without it, but when I paint on my eyeliner or my bright lipstick I do it with the intent of exaggerating my features, to go into battle, to look a bit more colourful and defined. It's war paint for me, and I'm glad to be able to play with that.
I have tons of pairs of high heeled shoes and boots, but they are all comfy and quite chunky. I don't need them, but I might wear a heel when I want to be noticed, to walk a bit taller, to take up more space. They make me level with most men. Heels can also be an excellent weapon if needed.
Men used to wear heels, humans have always, in all cultures, painted themselves, exaggerated features and fetished certain body parts.
If a man tried to strangle me I would knee him in the balls, and my kids have my name. I'm have never had sex that made me feel bad, I like sex too much to bother with bad sex.
My grown son thinks it's gross that I don't shave my armpits, and he shaves his, so men do feel pressured to remove hair these days.
Things are not so cut and dried as you seem to think.
I also agree with PP that feminine things are denigrated, and to be masculine is considered better. On this board women boast about how they only wear trousers and have short hair and never wear makeup. I am feminine, I embrace the feminine. It doesn't make me weak, or scared or stupid.

I am interested in clothes and style, have been since a young child. I can remember researching Victorian clothes when I was at primary school. I admire people with style whatever that maybe. To dismiss such interests as being anti feminist is not feminist. To dismiss such interests as not worthy is not feminist. To dismiss them as frivolous is not feminist.
The issue with some of the anti-make up posts is that they insinuate some sort of superiority of those who have no interest in appearance. I don't accept that, taking care of one's appearance is common to many species. If you don't care at all about your body, style or appearance, I think that is a bit unhealthy.
I like clothes, I like a bit of make up, I go to the gym 6 days a week (because I love it and how it makes me feel and I like how I look). I do these things because I enjoy them and have an interest in them.
Most people who exercise a lot do it partly for vanity, health benefits and enjoyment. As I admire people's style, I admire people who really go hard at the gym.
The moral superiority posts about make up and clothes take away from the better points about women being pressured by porn to accept what should be unacceptable and other women being terrible to other women. I have experienced the latter since a young teenager and I can't believe any adult doesn't realise those women to do it to control others and increase their own power and social standing.

I wonder too if there are some beauty norms we all accept e.g. teeth straightening. There is also the post from someone here with vitiligo and what she does to blend in. I think it's definitely worth thinking about and challenging ourselves about but recognise we probably all conform in some way.

I was brought up in a remote rural setting where a lot of the social norms simply were not imparted. As I got older and moved to big city I observed and took on some of these norms but in a kinda half hearted way. I don't really shave (do sometimes), don't wear high heels (do sometimes), rarely pluck eyebrows but do pluck chin hair ( funny that). As I get older the time I spend doing the expected stuff diminishes.

What is interesting I notice my DD also doesn't do a lot of the expected stuff but does sometimes. It's like as if we are sorta influenced by society but it hasn't fully taken hold.

Don't forget the role of capitalism in all of this. A lot of money is made from the beauty industry.

@fihawo but in this context you have two opposing social pressure - one to not wear makeup and one to wear it

also, I believe advertisement is more of manipulation than control - if an advert takes it too far, people will resist whatever it is promoting. The trick is to make product appealing, not say its required...and a lot of advertisements plays off already popular social trends (eg greenwashing). It's a two way street

for example: shapewear adverts. They used to focus on looking thin because that was the trend and goal of women at the time. The shapewear came into existence to satisfy the demand, then enhanced the preexisting trend. It was an opportunistic money grab, but not the origin of the standard

Now shapewear is promoted as something to highlight the existing curves, because being thin in 90s sense is no longer in fashion, so advertisers had to adapt. So now shapewear is supposedly showing off our curves or something (I dont know, my main curve is on my stomach).

I think you could argue that a lot of things that individual women do are damaging to women as a whole. For example, women who engage in casual sex or FWB situations. I'm sure that some women enjoy this, but most end up feeling hurt and used.

However, films and tv shows like sex and the city have taught women that they should be able to 'do it like a man' and be cool with this, so there is now more social pressure for young women to have sex outside of committed relationships. It's mainly men who benefit and take advantage of this.

However, I don't think it's reasonable to judge individual women or tell them that they can't have casual sex if they want to.

@Fynetanksfather maybe its nit really the main driver and just one of many theories as to why people decorate their bodies?

@OceanicBoundlessness but the standard does get redefined, not ceases to exist...and there is another can of worm to open about copying people who are comfortable in their own skin in hopes of being equally comfortable in yours

whether we define beauty as appeal to men, looking healthy or being confident, there always will be people who won't feel that great in their bodies for various reasons

and there always will be people who will feel both comfortable in their own body and yet choose to decorate it somehow

@PaintedEgg Of course, in context, school making girls remove make-up reinforces the pressure on them to wear it. You do realise that's part of the societal pressure I was talking about, rather than a negation thereof?

Complicated business, sexist stereotyping? Not really. But a lot of it remains determinedly implicit, like much contemporary social control (such as advertising, which I'm sure you nevertheless remain generally uninfluenced by).

But how will that increase the number and quality of your options for a (male) mate? (I.e. the main driver in looking healthier and more fertile).

I'm not sure I agree.
I've been attending a women's camp annually for about ten years.
Beauty standards soon get redefined there.
If anyone emulates anything it's not the women that are attractive by conventional standards it's the women who look so comfortable and happy in their own skin.

@thedankness How about some more groups

1. Women who don't like the activity and don't do it
2. Women who do like the activity and don't do it because it might harm others through unintended/systemic consequences

Is it surprising that there may be women from group 1 who resist the idea their actions harm others (who they cannot see and do not know) and feel they are being shamed into moving to group 5? And that some women claim that when others question the dominant narrative it is because they are jealous?

Of course women in group 1 don't have to accept someone else's analysis either.

I think it's helpful for people to share their stories. I can't really judge group 1 women because personally I've moved from group 2 to group 4 as far as makeup and heels are concerned. And I suppose that I believe that people are making the best decisions they can for their circumstances. If we share data and stories then that can change the basis of our decisions. But you only have to look at something like breastmilk/formula discussions to see that any open exploration can get shut down quickly because of blame, shame and projection. All things being equal, breastmilk is better than formula but all things are not equal.

I will add one more point that I think will upset some people - the beauty standards were not created in a vacuum. There are people with hourglass figure, or perfect skin, or long legs, or minimal body hair. Even if we all stopped shaving, wearing makeup or high heels, there would still be people who just won the gene lottery.

These people always existed, and others saw them and were envious of their looks so they tried to do "something" to look a bit closer to what these lucky ones looked like...so they dyed their hair, wore makeup, padded their clothes etc...

if you want fight something, fight with how appearance affects judgement of personality, not that people try to look (what they consider) prettier