Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

I don’t disagree, OP. I wonder, though, to some extent, is this pursuit for attraction inbuilt into our humanness? Like animals or birds - puffing out their prettiest feathers, we have just learnt how to manufacture even brighter, prettier feathers?

@WhatWouldJeevesDo thanks for responding.
I'm sorry it felt like I was trivialising what you were saying by linking back to body hair.
I've been married twice and neither time changed my name. It didn't feel like an effort and any comments from inlaws or friends have been like water off a duck's back.
On the other hand, when I was a young woman I felt deep shame at the hariness of my body, and so, so anxious about what other people (male and female) would think if they saw me undepilorated. I am happy I no longer live like that, life really is better now - so, to me, body hair isn't a triviality. Whereas maiden name-change kind of is.
What I observe on this thread is that there is SO MUCH variation in what, when it comes to social mores, we experience as overwhelming pressure to conform, what coheres with our preferences anyway, and what we feel no compunction to conform to at all.

@PurpleBugz I agree, there is a lot that men just get away with / don't do that women do.

But I also think that people in relationships "fall into" their roles.

I like to think of myself as progressive and my husband is very involved in family life (he does all the cooking for example)...and yet, over time, the "admin" bits related to kids somewhat fell into my list of to do things and it suits us both - because I remember / take care of those things anyway, so there is no need for him to be "on it" as much. He would if he had to, but he doesn't need to and I wouldn't want him to.

I would need to inconvenience myself and my family to change a family model that some women don't like...of course I would not do that and I would expect everyone to figure out their family dynamics on their own.

@PaintedEgg

"do the majority actually want to change the expectation / cares for it?"

There is something in this for sure. My mother will boast how my dad never changed a nappy. There is definitely this sense of respect given amoung some women because they did so much for the husband and family. It's a badge of honour.

I've also worked as a private nanny and did lots of work for wealthy stay at home mums who's husband was out all day working. Women who had cleaners, gardeners and access to their husbands money. Women in that postistion mostly don't want to change it from what I've seen. Obviously some will feel caged and go mad not working but the ones I e seen get fulfilled via their kids life and some charity work and heavy involvement in the PTA. One was at the spa most days. But with the expection of the gardeners all the outsourcing of work in the home is given to women.

The working mothers I've worked for outsourced all the home stuff to other women too. And yes I mean the mothers I've worked for at my contract was always with the mother sorting childcare only contract I've dad with dad on there too was the most amazing family and the closest to equality I've ever seen. (They also treated me like a human not the staff). But let's ask ourselves how many women really would have no problem with male childcare provision ? Many many of us would have no problem, many would say we have no problem then just pick a woman (sort of how men get the best jobs in other areas) but many will just think a woman will do a better job. And that's because of weaponised incompetence and that men often haven't learnt these skills to the same standard. A personal example is my son requires a carer, we have had a few and many of them are men, I've settled on a man as my son gets on with him most but when the women do the caring they will tidy as they go along and wash up their mug put the soiled clothes in the machine and the machine on not just dumped in front of it. I had one female carer who went above and beyond and did all the washing up and cleaned my kitchen- she didn't have to do it but she enjoyed it. She enjoyed it because she could see how much she helped the family as care of a child is not all parenting is but the men are good and enjoy the work because they like the kids and get the reward from that they don't even see the mess they leave the house in

@WhatWouldJeevesDo i think there is another angle to consider - do the majority actually want to change the expectation / cares for it?

For example, women were mosty bothered by having to do majority of chores at home so naturally more and more women began to push for their partners to pull their weight around the house and to teach their sons that they are not exempt from housework.

Women absolutely can keep their maiden name and unless there are much more serious issues in the relationship (control freak for a partner) there won't be that much pushback if they decide to keep it. If they don't then there is very real possibility that they don't want to and have reasons that go beyond "my in laws told me to"

No. I really wasn’t commenting on body hair. I can’t be bothered.
It gets confusing when people don’t actually quote the post concerned.
Anyway, I don’t see how you go from a situation where there is every expectation that a woman will do a particular thing such as change her surname to zero expectation without the actions of individuals changing the expectations of society. Or indeed in the case of oral sex, from zero expectation to every expectation.
Yes, it is a bit like the religious idea that everything we do to each other, we do to God, which could start to seem a bit ridiculous if employed when dealing with fairly trivial issues and used for control

In regards to hookup culture I can honestly say that as a woman I'm glad that more women feel they can enjoy casual sex.

I love sex. I don't however love the idea of being in a committed relationship, sharing a living space, going on dates etc. Just not for me. I like my own company and my own space as it is and if I want to go to restaurants/cinema etc that what's my friends, sisters etc are for.

Quite frankly, as simply ghastly and whorish as you may find it, I pretty much just want men for sex...so engaging in hookups with men who are on the same page as me in that regard is a pleasant, mutually agreeable way for two consenting adults to spend a Saturday night 🤷🏽‍♀️

I've known countless women over the years who feel the same way. It's silly to act as if all women out there are desperately seeking connections and commitment. I've never wanted either and it's not an uncommon way for a lot of women to think...

The men look older?

I find women look often older, even if they are younger than their partner.

And the botox and fillers just make them look older. Much, much older.

Re sexist assumptions about men v women's body images etc, men get a right royal slating on here for being cyclists, they are figures of derision, so it does cut both ways.

@jillgreen dating apps should have rating system like Uber 😂

With regards to hookups - I think it's perfectly possible to have hookups that are beneficial for women. I had a memorable experience with a gorgeous New Yorker on holiday which I don't regret for a second! However, the bar is currently on the floor for modern day one night stands. The more women who kid themselves that a quickie with three pump Peter (and a night listening to him snoring and farting in bed) represents the height of sexual liberation the harder it is for other women to expect more.

@Hubblebubble and I think this is great and just one aspect of human nature...nothing to do with men specifically, people (not just women) often derive some personal pleasure from their partner finding them attractive

@thedankness we discussed things like people having hookups or weird fetishes, to me this is firmly a part of private life and should not be subject to judgement from wider society

my main problem is that while we may try to change social norms to allow greater variety, changing them so that previously accepted things become unacceptable is basically just going round in circles...which in a way is what society has been doing for a long time for example going through phases of promotion of restrain and liberation

@LittleMissSunshiner that's a lot of projection in one post...and in this context your nickname is quite ironic :)

@PaintedEgg absolutely. Obviously as I bi woman I can't speak for lesbians, but one of my childhood best friends is a lesbian. She and her gf are both 'femme'. They love getting dressed up for dates with each other and have the most aesthetically pleasing home ever. In the unlikely event they ever split up, I'm sure they'll dress for the female gaze.

LOL I've go no idea what you're talking about and you don't know me so I would shut up banging on about it if I were you.

Regardless not interacting with you any longer because you're so hate filled and are not moving the discussion on.

Do you usually have issues with anyone who has worked recovery? Maybe you need recovery?

In case it's of any help to you, I used lots of different types of therapists and counsellors using many different methods from CBT to art therapy to psychodynamic and even psychoanalytic at one point (waste of time IMO), I needed medications and drug treatments and hospitalisation at certain times, I've been in lots of different types of groups and I've also worked 12 step programmes, used online resources and self-development programmes, books, tutorials, community groups, you name it.

Sorry you got stuck on the word spiritual but clearly its a trigger word that turns you into a hateful person. I'd work on that if I were you as there's tens of millions of people in the UK who either have an actual firm religion whether it be judaism, islam, christianity, catholicism, sikh, suffism, or a faith such as hare krishna or buddhism... or follow wicca or paganisma... and many more... or simply a personal spiritual belief more based in nature such as me.

You're going to have to live amongst them all whilst you believe in nothing which is your absolute right to do so, so you may as well learn how to drop the hate as you do sound hateful and that's not nice for you.

@LittleMissSunshiner and yet you sound like every other person who found spirituality later in life - self-rigorous, convinced they're right, self-absorbed and 100% sure they are not being influenced by anyone or anything despite parroting someone else's ideas and just engaging in self-serving escapism

and btw, i never held your beliefs about women so it sounds like you're just projecting your shit blueprint onto others

I don't think you understand the meaning of 'blueprint' in the context I was using it then.

One's blueprint is the childhood conditioning and training and input you received from your caregivers, the culture and society around you that you raised in, and the school teachings at the school you went to, the culture of your neighbourhood, the dynamics of the systems you were raised in, the culture and politics of your country, even intergenerational beliefs that exist withing your family system. You had no choice about that as you were born into it all as an innocent child with no agency over yourself.

Believe me you, I broke out of my blueprint. I was certainly brainwashed to believe that women should do x, y, z, and that my greatest worth was how I looked, how slim I was, what I wore, what I owned, how sexual I was, who I was having sex with. Tragic.

I'm sorry people feel challenged by my use of the word 'spiritual' as it seems to have undermined my other points. I'm not religious and wasn't raised religious, I simply have developed a belief in a higher power as part of my recovery.

@MidnightMeltdown sorry for convoluted post, basically what I meant to say is that if all women start to refuse hookups without commitment this will leave women who do not seek commitment both single and without sex...how is that a win for them?

@MidnightMeltdown I think this will make me a tiny bit of an asshole, but I will say that adults are responsible for their own choices.

Yes, hookups are universally known to be bad but when you look into research it's a lot to do with how bad the sex itself is...and its not surprising, because what are the odds that two strangers will give each other 10/10 experience? It seems like it's often a half-measure for people who don't want a relationship or can't be in one, but still want sex...hence the expectation is actually pretty low. It seems like hookup sex is often the same as getting breakfast on the go

Which brings me to my next point - do we really need to protect women from experience that does serve some sort of purpose but is almost universally known to be subpar? I have managed to avoid bad hookups by never having hookups, and anyone I ever spoke to who had them was not driven by social pressure but by being single and horny at the same time

I also find it odd when people say that they wear make makeup, but then say, 'but only a small amount' - as if this makes them morally superior.

So women are allowed to wear makeup but not 'too much' makeup? Who gets to make the judgement call on what is 'too much' makeup? No wonder women are under so much pressure when they are faced with this constant judgement and criticism.

I absolutely disagree that casual sex is harmful to women as a whole - nobody is forcing anyone to do it! normalisation of one end of spectrum of sexual behaviour does not mean the other end is now "not normal".

@PaintedEgg I don't agree with this. I think that the promotion of hookup culture is very detrimental to women as a whole. Much more detrimental than the things that OP lists. Research has shown time and time again that very few woman actually want or enjoy hookups, but there is social pressure, particularly for young women, to engage in this as it has become normalised, and it mainly benefits men.

Now I'm absolutely not saying that women shouldn't have casual sex if they want to, but I don't see this as any different to women wearing makeup, shaving, having cosmetic surgery etc. The point is that you can't dictate what individual woman are allowed to do with their own bodies, just because some other women may see it as harmful to them. Nobody is forced wear makeup or have cosmetic surgery, and if some women want to do this, then it's really nobody's business but theirs. I'm sick of the judgement.

I think this surge in plastic surgery/ Botox/lip fillers etc may be responsible for why so so many men look much older than their partners when they get to a certain age.

that wasn't my point...but lets go with it

do you think that homosexual women, who genuinely have no interest in being attractive to men, put on makeup or use botox to be attractive to other women? and if so then obviously the issue is a bit more complex than "male gaze makes women do things"

on topic of fillers - when I will get to that stage (and I know I will) it won't be for men for sure