Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

That makes absolute sense tome, @ArabellaScott. We need to change those societal pressures, and hopefully, in that context, every decision we make that does buck the patriarchal pressures will help drive that change.

@OchonAgusOchonOh - my reading of the OP and other posts on this thread, and other similar MN threads, have left me with the impression that every ‘wrong’ decision I have made, has made me a failure to the cause - but I am happy to be wrong about that.

I think the single thing most women do which damages them is have children outside of marriage, give the child a surname which is not theirs, and do the majority of the childcare and housework. If you are going to do this then make sure it isn’t you who’s career is taking second place. Women taking time off for things such as sick children whilst their oh does not. Always being the default parent so the man can relax etc. It’s bad news for women.
If you are going to have a child with someone who you are not legally connected to, then do not sacrifice your career. Make him take time off for childcare etc.

Great way to phrase it.

It is plain fact that naming and title decisions do not occur in a vacuum and that they affect other people. That's how those systems work. I would like to be equal to a man in that I want to be able to keep my own name and also give it to my children without any of those things being remarkable or commented on, without attracting criticism, confusion both genuine and faux or refusal to use the correct names for my DC and I. All of these things have happened to me.

Because I don't have this, I am not equal to a man in that respect. It's one more thing they get without having to worry about it, that I can't have. My inability to do those things is because of patriarchy. I can't have that, but I could have it if enough other women in our free society chose to do it, because it's existence depends on it being a norm.

My wish doesn't impose any obligation on other women, of course, and nor was it women who invented any of this. What it does mean is that the decisions other women make deny me equality in this area. Natuarally, it doesn't follow that equality in any one area solves inequality and patriarchy in others, but then that never stopped anyone strawmanning about it.

I can accept that whether a person changes their name has little impact on others.

But I can't accept the same for the change from Miss to Mrs where there is not the same for men.

Whatever the personal taste or meaning for the person doing it, it does impact other women to live in a society where a significant number of people think it is fine that a woman's marital status is broadcast automatically but a man's is not. It's true that the social status based on marriage is no longer what it was. But I still remember being told, probably in the 90s that "only two types of women use Ms, those who are divorced and feminists" and this was used disparagingly.

Is it a massive harm? No, I don't think so. For me it is symbolic of inequality both between the sexes and between women. But symbolism is something people can disagree about. Of course now we have the joy of Mx. Personally I think I'd do away with these titles altogether if it were up to me. But trying to control other people's language is a waste of time and I have enough to do already.

If majority of women don't notice the pressure then is there really a pressure? and if there is - is it social pressure or one executed by the immediate environment?

take being a housewife - there are some men who absolutely would pressure their wives to be stay at home mums and not engage in any form of employment.

At the same time, wider society has been criticising and mocking housewives for good few decades now. Women who, for various reasons, chose to stay at home often find themselves being embarrassed by their position because of the way wider society reacts...not to mention the long list of negative character traits assigned to these women (lazy, stupid, uneducated, naive, lacking ambition...). Is it pro-feminist to add to this external pressure that someone who wants to stay at home has to actively fight against?

I remember that even as a young child I have heard adults making fun of women who relied financially on their spouses - the message was clear "don't be like that".

Most of the world, a woman doesn’t change her surname when married, even in countries where women have less equality.

Changing your surname or not has zero impact on the equality of women, but it is a convenient rotten red herring to beat other women up with and blame them for persistent inequalities.

Similarly not changing your surname doesn’t affect equality of women at all either. It is decorative only.

Exactly.

Name changing in particular, unfortunately, is one area where some women simply will not tolerate it being pointed out that they engaged in an objectively anti-feminist behaviour. But it doesn't make you a failed feminist if you engaged in some patriarchal tradition or compromised with patriarchy, and I doubt there's a single feminist in existence who hasn't done that sometimes. It's the nature of the beast, and it's a beast that women have to navigate much more than men.

Yes, it's not about judging other women. It's about looking at those pressures and revealing them. Because often women don't even consciously notice the pressures - societal pressures can be very subtle, and as I said, not always a.bad thing or even of any moral weight one way or the other.

I don't think any one is suggesting that perfection is required. I have made decisions that were best for me but did buy in to patriarchical tradition. It doesn't make me any less a feminist.

However, I think it is important we question our decisions and consider the impact if we want to improve society and achieve equality. It is more of a problem in terms of progress if people simply do things without thinking.

For example, my dc have my dh's surname because it didn't dawn on me to question it (youngest is 21, eldest 26 so it was a while back). They have my surnmame as a middle name but in hindsight I'm sorry we didn't give them both surnames. That was not a feminist decision. It wasn't even a considered decision. I'm still a feminist.

I also made a decision to work part time while the kids were young. It was a decision that bought into patriarchal tradition. However, it was a considered decision based on our work environments, contacts and finances. Because I am public sector it made more sense for me to be the one to go part time. I knew it was not the feminist choice from the perspective of societal betterment but so what, I'm not perfect and some decisions are made for selfish reasons.

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

OK so me.

TWANW.
"Sex work" is formalised rape.
"Kinky sex" covers a multitude of sins but if it isn't truly consensual then it's rape.
Porn. This just dehumanises everybody. It is the heroin of sex.

I find the rest quite challenging.

No woman should accept a low standard in a relationship with a man but not all women enjoy a high level of agency. THIS IS NOT THEIR FAULT.

WRT abortion, I cannot imagine any circumstances where I would choose to abort but I would never condemn any woman who did. They are not me and I don't own their bodies or minds.

As for the rest of it, so effing what?

I get my eyebrows and eyelashes tinted. I'm ginger so otherwise they would be invisible. I don't wear any other makeup but that's mainly because I like the splash of freckles across my nose and cheeks and don't want to hide it. It is part of me.

I dress for a combination of comfort and credibility. I spend 11 months of the year at work in trousers, jacket and shirt with ballet flats. I'm warm and comfortable and look professional. On the few hot days I will wear a short-sleeved cotton dress and sandals. Still comfortable, still professional.

I wear whatever I feel like at home.

My body hair maintenance regime is between me and DH.

I took DH's surname. Sorry but I didn't give it a moment's thought. Mea Culpa.

The problem with aiming for perfection is that failure is pretty much guaranteed, and being told (or having it implied) that one has failed as a feminist is pretty discouraging.

If it's an expectation and the norm, no matter how many individual reasons there might be, then on a group level it's not actually a choice. Even more so when going against the norm is met with backlash.

@ArabellaScott I agree, although it is interesting because it seems like that pressure be experienced from both sides. I got quite a few snide remarks when I remarried and changed my name because apparently I was being a hypocrite for doing so.

the proposal scenario got me thinking that sometime whatever happens woman is on a losing position

is she waits for a man to propose without saying anything then he literally holds all the power regarding the decision to get married...because if she refuses then this will likely end the relationship

is she mentions it can be seen as forcing his hand and nagging about it

if she proposes then obviously she must be desperate...and even if nobody says it out load, the question would hang in the air as to why he didn't do it first and again - is she forcing him?

and women's actions, whatever they are, often tend to be interpreted at our disadvantage

I'd say in this instance it's an accumulative effect of the millions of tiny acts and choices we are faced with. Micro pressures you could say. All of which work to convince women their worth is deeply involved in their fertility and availability as sexual objects. Tiny things alone, for sure, and apparently inconsequential.

Where you see the power show up is what happens when women choose to defy the norm. So a woman who doesn't take a man's name, or wear make up, or smile often enough. And again, the effects can be small. A raised eyebrow, a pressed lip, a barbed remark. Socialisation is an enormously complex and impactful thing woven very deeply into our lives, and its not always negative.

I agree. Unless we can examine our choices and see the impact in its entirety, we won't progress as a society.

Choices like changing names when we marry or defaulting to the father's surname for children may be valid and sensible for an individual but on a societal level it is giving the defacto message that the woman's identity is less important and more disposable than the woman's. This can and does continue to perpetuate the idea that woman's role is also less important which is obviously not a societal good.

I can lend you some gloves! 😁

I've abandoned it as I had gone beyond childish but feel free to jump in on either side if you want.

@ArabellaScott my question is more about the actual harm of certain practice when the alternative option is available and chosen by some women.

For this particular example my question would be what is the wide-scale harm of that practice. Yes, it is a bit archaic, but is it genuinely harmful?

I was a actually going to compare it to romantic proposals, but then realised that the expectation that it is a man who proposes is genuinely harmful to wider society and women as individuals

@PaintedEgg @OchonAgusOchonOh

Is this a private fight or can anybody join in?

Not to mention that even if we do assume that most women change their names due to patriarchal values, that still does not explain why they should change their behaviour if these values don't bother them and clearly don't impact ability of other women to make a different choice

This is what 'class analysis' is about. Yes, women choose to interact with patriarchy for their own personal benefit and yes our choices impact on other people. It's not 'going after' women to question and discuss how we may benefit or not from these choices.

You didn't manage condescending, merely aggressive.

Anyway, I've had enough so feel free to have the last word.

unless its directed at you