Guilty verdict in Brianna Ghey case

I’d be interested in knowing a bit more if possible? Maybe a link or a recommended book?

I'm really sorry, this is just based on what I've experienced working with children with autism/ send/ semh. Extremes are not common but it's understood enough by colleagues that we do take note of media influences via general recording and would escalate further if we felt it was inappropriate. We do record all incidents where children have had altercations.

@RedToothBrush no that isn't normal and sounds really tough. I'm sorry your ds had to go through that.

I'm with that.

I think you always have to be careful with the "silver bullet" approach (whereby we blame the Internet/video games etc) that is favoured by MPs, because then people can focus to campaign on one thing and then claim to have fixed the problem, when they really haven't.

Yes I think this is a very important point.

I think you always have to be careful with the "silver bullet" approach (whereby we blame the Internet/video games etc) that is favoured by MPs, because then people can focus to campaign on one thing and then claim to have fixed the problem, when they really haven't.

I remember the Bulger case then focused on the film Child's Play 3, mass shootings in US see law makers blame video games instead of their lax gun control etc.

We'll probably see here a lot of contributing factors (including violent internet content). Each one of those things in isolation will not cause someone to become a murderer, but a combination potentially could.

It's a complex case, and as much as I don't want to see it derailed by cries of transphobia, I don't want to focus solely on the dark web etc too. There was a lot going on, and essentially there isn't a quick fix.

As I said on the previous no deleted threads. Warrington has historically has received one of the lowest amount of funding in the country per pupil out of over 600 council area. I think it was bottom ten. This has improved a little in recent years but the chronic legacy of the problem remains.

It has one of the highest levels of economic inequality in the country too, which adds its own layer of complexity to the situation. It means you have a lot of really socially deprived kids in some areas and a massive scrap for funding anywhere else. It hurts everyone.

Is this a factor, I don't honestly know, but I do think that it's possible and should really be considered.

That's scary, Red.

A child in my son's class started bullying another (DS inadvertently got dragged into it). This child became fixated with the other. At one point he was saying things like how he wanted to sacrifice the other and on one occasion went into school having made up a song about how every day he wanted to kill this child. He also physically hurting a number of the other children on a regular basis in addition to his main target.

We reported everything that came up and DS was telling us.

Parents are affluent, generally likeable but feckless. And very middle class and pushy. They pushed back against everything school said. Eventually social services were involved, in no small part down to how hard we pushed back and supported another family through it.

Its gone on for over two years and only recently seems to have massively calmed down. (I've been told by a third party he's now on medication).

It is terrifying. It's not normal for kids at primary age or even secondary age to be saying and doing these things.

I am hoping that the right interventions are in place, but why a 6/7 year old was getting this all from deeply troubles me. I still think more could be done to help him and the parents.

The whole class has ended up with lessons on relationships and managing feelings and conflict because it was starting to suck others into his pattern of behaviour.

I do not think for a second it's an isolated case (especially given my location either).

I think from what school staff are saying it's becoming scarily common.

@WarriorN by 'violent online material' are you referring to video footage, or gaming, or something else, just out of interest?

I think society is hugely unprepared for the real consequences of constantly being online and everything that opens you up to.

WarriorN, that’s interesting. I’d be interested in knowing a bit more if possible? Maybe a link or a recommended book?

When I was growing up (late 90s) we used to laugh at the idea that listening to Marilyn Manson might make us violent. But now I expect the extremity and volume of violent material is in a whole different league. And I believe there is evidence of excessive porn consumption having a very harmful influence of children’s understanding of sex (we deal with this in pshe).

Thinking about it, I’ve alerted the DSL regarding children who disclose watching videos about self harm or eating disorders but I’ve never done it for violence. So many children are permitted to watch 18 rated films and play GTA from year 7 that I wonder if it would even be possible to push back against.

excessive consumption of violent online material has an impact on developing children

From personal experience, can be an enormous issue affecting day to day behaviour and attitudes.

And it takes a lot of very skilled adults to work across all spheres of that child's life to help tackle the impact of this. I've seen it happen though. Amazing teams of people do exist. Those costly BCEs that Dawn Butler hasn't tuned into.

I’m actually annoyed more isn’t being made about the use (& abuse) of Autistic Spectrum Disorder as a defence. Especially by the boy Y. That for me is at least if not more of an issue as any transphobia in this case.

They did mention the possibility of him being autistic in their conversations before the murder. Whether that element has been overplayed I guess will possibly be reflected in the sentencing.

I could be wrong but I believe the judge is waiting for reports on this before sentencing. So will be interesting to see the findings.

Thanks @MrsOvertonsWindow. We do sometimes hear about serious case reviews when they lead to updates in KCSIE but I didn’t know how common they were.

20+ pages of pure hot air really.

Girl X, the instigator was not transphobic & she picked the victim(s).

Boy Y, was transphobic at least to a degree, but he wasn’t the instigator & would have killed absolutely anyone else on X’s list.

I’m actually annoyed more isn’t being made about the use (& abuse) of Autistic Spectrum Disorder as a defence. Especially by the boy Y. That for me is at least if not more of an issue as any transphobia in this case.

It’s extremely annoying, because with Y’s self serving bullshit he has done the broader ASD community few favours at all in terms of how they are & will be perceived in broader society.

Thanks @MrsOvertonsWindow

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brianna-ghey-killers-teenagers-motives-b2467938.html

I don’t know how accurate this analysis is, but worth pondering. We often hear that grooming happens online for school shooters, terrorists etc so it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think that excessive consumption of violent online material has an impact on developing children.

For the police investigation, to the prosecution case, to the other four intended victims, to the parents, friends and teachers the transgender status of the victim was not core, but to some posters here it is all that matters.

Someone is being dehumanised to only be seen as their identity and not as the person they were. Being is trans is what someone is, not who they are.

There is so much more to a person than just their gender identity, but some people just can't get past that. It is their fixation.

There will be a Serious Case Review - there are for all child deaths & cases of serious harm. The reviews are not only published but systematically reviewed to see what we can learn and often guidance is amended in light of the findings.

I must say, your desire to deflect from your ignorance is interesting to see.

This sentence makes no sense. Unless you mean arrogance?

I've personally talked at length about the tremendous failure in safeguarding that has led to these children killing another child. I've used the name Brianna for the child as has everyone else.

Within this context, the murder of a child, "deadname" is an extremely inappropriate term. That's not deflection.

Same reason that if I go to a church wedding I don't heckle, or wear a Bad Religion t-shirt. You can respect others beliefs without sharing them.

Exactly.

I’m still shocked that the two murderers were able to carefully and graphically plan such an horrific crime and no adults around them were aware. How is it possible that their behaviour didn’t raise any red flags at school? Did anyone (eg friends or teachers) raise concerns? I hope there is a serious case review, but I’m not sure if they’re only done when a child dies at the hands of a care giver?

There was an inquiry into the James Bulger case, and a report produced.

So misgendering is disrespectful yes?

You can respect others beliefs without sharing them.

Indeed. This thread is not, however, about whether posters believe in gender ideology so anyone derailing into that territory should (imo) just be ignored.

I’m still shocked that the two murderers were able to carefully and graphically plan such an horrific crime and no adults around them were aware. How is it possible that their behaviour didn’t raise any red flags at school? Did anyone (eg friends or teachers) raise concerns? I hope there is a serious case review, but I’m not sure if they’re only done when a child dies at the hands of a care giver?

Yeah they go to great lengths to avoid doing so because they know it would look terrible if they said "he". Why don't you just say "he"? If you believe so strongly what you believe? Is it because you recognise it would be needlessly cruel?

Maybe you could go away and reflect on why you feel it's important to coerce and compel women's speech, when they are not actually "misgendering" out of a wish to be respectful to a murdered child who had different beliefs about sex and gender to them?

RedToothBrush: “In terms of sentencing, I'm not sure why looking at transphobia really matters. The significant factor is the total lack of remorse and how it was all treated as a joke. It was a game. And that in itself probably should merit a harsher sentence without the need to consider transphobia.”

It matters because the law requires hostility to transgender identity to be considered as part of sentencing. The judges decision won’t be known until sentencing in February.