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Original poster

Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

503 replies

WarriorN · 19/12/2023 10:37

Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 23/12/2023 10:35

Tandora · 23/12/2023 09:54

The term "gender identity" used to be used to mean a child's understanding of what sex they were. It was used that way in academic papers about child development

Yes this is exactly it. It is the same for transgender children. It’s just for trans kids, their understanding of their “sex” differs from the understanding of their sex designated to them at (or these days sometimes before) birth - usually on the basis of genitals (or sometimes chromosomes).
This is rare, but it happens.
You might not like that this happens , but it is very much real and people, including children like this, have existing throughout history in all cultures.
You may want to insist that a person’s gender (understanding of their sex) is based on their genitals (in line with society at large) but this is as harmful as insisting their sexuality is defined by their genitals (as we used to and still do in many parts of the world). You cannot change a young person’s sexuality and you cannot change their gender. This is deeply harmful and wrong; it is dehumanising, degrading and cruel and it leads to terrible outcomes.

Edited
Show quote history

If some children "know" that their sex is different from their actual biological sex, what are they basing their knowledge on?

Children know what sex they are because they are told by adults what their sex is, which is based on their genitals.

For these special children who "know" they "are" the opposite sex from their bodies, where do they get this knowledge from? It's not from the adults around them, so it must be something they just make up. Or is there some divine intervention or something? And what is this essence of being that is the opposite sex to their actual bodies?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/12/2023 10:01

ArabellaScott · 23/12/2023 09:56

Very concerning to see that so many children who are gender questioning have a history of CSA. Another reason any concerns about 'identity' should probably be considered a safeguarding issue. These are vulnerable children with complex needs, who need sensitive support and care.

Yes. The over representation amongst gender questioning children of children in care of the State, children who have suffered a bereavement & CSA and of course all those on the autistic spectrum is testament to how dangerous this ideology is to children.

ArabellaScott · 23/12/2023 09:56

Very concerning to see that so many children who are gender questioning have a history of CSA. Another reason any concerns about 'identity' should probably be considered a safeguarding issue. These are vulnerable children with complex needs, who need sensitive support and care.

Tandora · 23/12/2023 09:54

OldCrone · 20/12/2023 15:35

The term "gender identity" used to be used to mean a child's understanding of what sex they were. It was used that way in academic papers about child development.

It's now been twisted to mean the sex a person wants to be, regardless of their actual sex. I think that's how @Tandora is using it. The definition of what a gender identity is becomes circular when used that way which is why @Tandora's definition doesn't make sense.

Show quote history

The term "gender identity" used to be used to mean a child's understanding of what sex they were. It was used that way in academic papers about child development

Yes this is exactly it. It is the same for transgender children. It’s just for trans kids, their understanding of their “sex” differs from the understanding of their sex designated to them at (or these days sometimes before) birth - usually on the basis of genitals (or sometimes chromosomes).
This is rare, but it happens.
You might not like that this happens , but it is very much real and people, including children like this, have existing throughout history in all cultures.
You may want to insist that a person’s gender (understanding of their sex) is based on their genitals (in line with society at large) but this is as harmful as insisting their sexuality is defined by their genitals (as we used to and still do in many parts of the world). You cannot change a young person’s sexuality and you cannot change their gender. This is deeply harmful and wrong; it is dehumanising, degrading and cruel and it leads to terrible outcomes.

BonfireLady · 23/12/2023 09:46

I've just read the BBC article and the Sex Matters response. Thanks for posting @ArabellaScott and @MsGoodenough
You can almost feel the glee with which the BBC wrote that article, having an opportunity to spread doubt. However, the Sex Matters response brings back the common sense.
I fully agree with PPs above that any legal ambiguity seems to point more to flaws in the EA than anything else. The unfolding information coming from the Cass Review is key here. I hope that the government is brave enough to publish the guidance with as few compromises as possible once the consultation has finished and will let case law form off the back of it. It would also be very helpful if they change the EA to say that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment does not apply to anyone under 18 years old.

If the guidance retains the written clarity that not everyone believes we have a gender identity, I can't imagine that many ideologically based challenges would win in court (even with the current issues within the EA). Anything which prioritises one person's belief over another's has no place in law. Anything which risks the mental and physical wellbeing of children has no place in schools.

Tandora · 23/12/2023 09:44

ChatBFP · 20/12/2023 14:58

@Tandora

If gender is just knowing what sex you are, then my kids both know what sex they are - they refer to their parts by the correct names and say things like "I am a boy because I have a willy and you are a girl because you have a vulva". My kids are 3 and 5, btw. They share a bath often, so they know why they have different bits.

Is this enough to be "their sense of their own sex" to have fixed their gender at their young ages?

If they think they are trans when they are 14, what has happened? Does gender suddenly just change depending on what ideas and stereotypes they get exposed to? In which case, why is it more important than sex, which is a constant through everyone's life and a key determinant of strength, aggression, bone density, propensity for violent crime and risk taking, likelihood of getting pregnant?

Yes, your children have a gender identity. It is perfectly normal and expected by age 3. Most children develop gender constancy- a permanent sense of their gender by age 6: https://srcd.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2007.01056.x

Tandora · 23/12/2023 09:41

Just part of the statement

Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance
Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance
Original poster
WarriorN · 23/12/2023 09:14

Hopefully @MrsOvertonsWindow, the growing evidence suggests there's no other way forward.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/12/2023 09:05

That report card from Sex Matters is great. Look forward to their guidance for the consultation in the New Year

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/12/2023 09:04

WarriorN · 23/12/2023 07:48

We don't just have a contested belief around gender identity.

There's a 'contested belief' in child safeguarding that identifying as trans is a safeguarding trigger in itself.

KCSIE - the document that is statutory, and all safeguarding training in schools is based on, says it is not.

This is a reminder of how catastrophic the linking of the T with LGB has been. However, Ofsted have recently done the Stonewall dump and are now hurrying back across that golden bridge pointing out that schools keeping secrets from parents is a safeguarding matter. Hopefully the final Cass report will make it impossible to see ROGD & little children saying they're the opposite sex as anything but a safeguarding related matter and KCSIE will have to be amended.

ArabellaScott · 23/12/2023 08:46

Yes, Warrior, that was the sense I got - everything circles back to the EA being badly drafted law. It's making subsequent legislation very unclear and difficult.

Original poster
WarriorN · 23/12/2023 08:07

I saw that, but with the caveats with in the document-that social transition can happen in rare cases, cross referenced with the Cass review which seems to be leaning towards 'this is under medical supervision,' I'm struggling to see how the reality of that would happen.

Schools are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't now. This guidance actually stops them being sued for keeping secrets. It throws it back to the 'mental health condition' realm rather than as if 'coming out as gay.'

But I'm not a lawyer.

It's draft and so subject to change.

The whole document is more about legalities of the EA which is clearly a mess.

OP posts:
Original poster
WarriorN · 23/12/2023 07:48

We don't just have a contested belief around gender identity.

There's a 'contested belief' in child safeguarding that identifying as trans is a safeguarding trigger in itself.

KCSIE - the document that is statutory, and all safeguarding training in schools is based on, says it is not.

OP posts:
Original poster
WarriorN · 23/12/2023 07:43

Thank you, looking forward to other responses too.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/12/2023 11:55

Good points WarriorN.

Maybe (after Christmas) a thread about the consultation would be worthwhile. Hopefully parents will be reassured that as Labour have welcomed "the consultation" they're giving tacit approval for people to voice their opinions without the normal bullying that happens so they'll feel encouraged to share their thoughts?

Original poster
WarriorN · 22/12/2023 10:28

MsGoodenough · 22/12/2023 08:49

Everyone here needs to fill in the consultation. I'm sure the TRAs will be all over it and we need as many sane responses as possible.

Edited

One of the key points that needs to be highlighted when this is filled in, is that there were x10 the rates of children who had a parent on the sex offender register.

The safeguarding for the child around all this lies around two areas:

• what reasons or external pressures has has led the child to this conclusion?

• the longer term implications of adults agreeing that this conclusion is correct: a) Other issues, potentially very serious such as csa can be missed. B) locking a child into an idea that leads to long term irreversible medical interventions.

And that none of this is in KCSIE or any other recognised statutory guidance or law.

Some of this is touched on but it's far too wooly and will be non statutory.

OP posts:
PorcelinaV · 22/12/2023 09:52

timetorefresh · 22/12/2023 09:28

I've tried to look at the consultation, but can't get to it. I just keep going round in circles. Anyone else finding the same?

...

timetorefresh · 22/12/2023 09:28

I've tried to look at the consultation, but can't get to it. I just keep going round in circles. Anyone else finding the same?

MsGoodenough · 22/12/2023 08:49

Everyone here needs to fill in the consultation. I'm sure the TRAs will be all over it and we need as many sane responses as possible.

AttillaThePlum · 22/12/2023 08:45

@pronounsbundlebundle Yes, this is the big issue - just not creating any more damage to an unhappy child. I have been on various boards/chats with parents in the same situation and even people who have had far worse than us don't want to take the school on. In our case, there was the further issue of a ND child who had finally - after several false starts - found a school that worked for her.

Someone mentioned young and left-wing teachers above. The driving force in our case was a young male teacher who was HoY and very active in the Labour Party.

BonfireLady · 22/12/2023 08:31

On the subject of Bridget Phillipson, I remember when she did a Mumsnet Q&A and she answered my question about what Labour would do for schools' guidance. She said that they would start a consultation. At this point in time, the Tories had already gone past their deadline of getting the guidance out, so in that context what she was saying was that they would reset it and start the whole thing again.
I don't often find myself agreeing with Robin Moira White but I think Robin may have a point here: Bridget didn't welcome the guidance, she welcomed the consultation.
https://twitter.com/moira_robin/status/1737517561212731519?t=ME2Wt1CJhfGfPtWscbzlOw&s=19

I get the impression that Labour will (if/when elected) do what they can to draw this out. I do hope that the Tories are going to do the right thing by closing off the consultation and getting the final guidance issued before the election, rather than using it as a tool to garner votes. I've never voted Tory in my life but I'm getting close to being a single issue voter, despite how much I disagree with their position on many other things (and am appalled at their behaviour during covid) but I want action, not rhetoric. If they don't push this through with urgency, I won't trust them to ever do it.

https://twitter.com/moira_robin/status/1737517561212731519?s=19&t=ME2Wt1CJhfGfPtWscbzlOw

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