Miriam Cates under investigation

Oh, I forgot. I had hoped for once it might be a good faith discussion. Mea Culpa. Fuck this, I'm out.

WTF are you actually talking about re boats and asylum? Is that directed at me?

Anyway, I'm at risk of derailing the thread.
Still interested in how people think Miriam Cates/Nat Con goals can be met in a way that's compatible with Conservative values.

There's a bit more to it than that.

In May 2006, the TV programme Zembla reported that Hirsi Ali had given false information about her name, her age, and her country of residence when originally applying for asylum.[70] In her asylum application, she had claimed to be fleeing a forced marriage, but the Zembla coverage featured interviews with her family, who denied that claim.[71] The program alleged that, contrary to Hirsi Ali's claims of having fled a Somali war zone, the MP had been living comfortably in upper middle-class conditions safely in Kenya with her family for at least 12 years before she sought refugee status in the Netherlands in 1992.

The accounts of various witnesses varied greatly from hers. According to them, she left Somalia prior to any mass violence and led a comfortable, upper-middle class life in neighboring Kenya, where she attended a Muslim girls' school and received a full western-style education with a focus on the humanities and science. Further, these witnesses allege that her brother attended a Christian school, that she lied to the Dutch immigration service about coming from Somalia in order not to be sent back to Kenya, and that she met her husband a few days before her wedding. After several meetings with him, they allege she agreed to the marriage, even though her mother said Ayaan should finish her education so she could afford to leave him if the marriage should prove unsuccessful. They also allege that Hirsi Ali was present at the wedding, something her brother later denied, and according to several witnesses appeared to be enjoying herself. Hirsi Ali denies all of this. On her way to Canada, she says she travelled to the Netherlands by train during a stopover in Germany and applied for political asylum. During her stay in the Netherlands, she regularly received letters from her father.[72] The documentary also quoted several native Somalis as saying there is no tradition of honor killing in Somalia.[73]

Kinda interesting to see some posters who are concerned about immigration and boats so staunchly defending someone who's proven to have abused the asylum system.

Gosh. The Minister who effectively made Hirsi Ali leave was subsequentlu expelled from Geert Wilder's party.

Having inistally falsified details on her asylum claim, Hirsi Ali subsequently revealed this, and the reason, and there had been no issue.

Only the far right Immigration Minister decided she would expel her years later.

Glad I looked into all that, thanks Adam Ryan. My estimation for AHA only increases.

'Hirsi Ali, 36, falsified her name and date of birth on her asylum application when she arrived in 1992, fearing reprisals from her family after she claimed she fled from an arranged marriage.'

Well people can Google her and draw their own conclusions. She lies so her autobiography could be accurate, or it could be a work of fiction 🤔

On the contrary, she has vast experience and has led quite a remarkable life. I'd take her word over that of most others. You should read her memoirs before making such a judgement, I'd say.

Some muslims have a fatwah out against her because they consider her an infidel. I'll not take al jazeera too seriously when reporting on her. She knows Islam inside and out - having been brought up in Somalia and in Saudi Arabia, and having been a Muslim scholar.

I have a lot of time for Ayyan Hirsi Ali. I'll have to take a proper listen. I'm aware that she has recently turned to Christianity.

That's not what I said. I said the West has a long and deep rooted Christian tradition that has shaped our culture. (Though we also have remnants of native folk/fertility religions in the form of Maypole dancing and Harvest Festivals)

I'd not heard of Ayan Hirsi Ali until recently (on this board coincidentally). She is not really the most reliable person so I'd take what she says with a pinch of salt

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2006/5/16/dutch-mp-quits-over-asylum-lies

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O0QT7KMWERI

It's happened about as much as "trickle down economics" has happened in capitalist societies! 😂
My point is that if a Government pursued Cates' suggestions of prioritising "families" for cheap housing and support, that they would have to be more interventionist than conservatives traditionally are.

Maybe you could address that point rather than trying to derail?

Miriam Cates is the "72 goetic demons genders" porky pies one isn't she?

Which is the right party? The biggest percentage increase in house prices in recent years occurred between 1997 and 2008.

Good point

Has ‘wealth is redistributed according to the needs of the community’
ever actually happened under communism then?

How do the government ensure who gets to buy the "cheap" houses? How does the government define "family"?

It's a very anti-Conservative approach to dictate who gets what from a centralised government, is the point I was making.

It sounds like the NatCons preferred approach is more akin to a form of communism, where wealth is redistributed according to the needs of the community.

Britain is absolutely based on values such as tolerance, equality and compromise.
These are shared human values and are embedded into most religions and societies. They are absolutely not a unique British or Christian feature.

I found Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s recent take on Christianity really y

https://unherd.com/2023/11/why-i-am-now-a-christian/

(I have no spiritual beliefs whatsoever, personally!)

'So instead of spending £billions taking babies off their mothers (which doesn’t increase birth rate, cf. Finland), spend it on tax cuts and cheap housing for families'
'…so parents can CHOOSE how to care for their children. If we’re really interested in productivity growth we should be investing in FAMILIES not trying to squeeze every last drop of short-term GDP ‘contribution’ out of parents'

(Cates' recent tweets)

Cates is calling for cheaper housing.

Not sure how this is 'draconian', or any different to Labour's approach.

We live in a society where many couples both work, therefore market forces dictate house prices that are often out of reach of single earner families.
If she wants redistribution of wealth into lower paid households to improve their living standards she's in the wrong party

Which is the right party? The biggest percentage increase in house prices in recent years occurred between 1997 and 2008.

Britain is absolutely based on Christian values such as tolerance, equality and compromise. These are embedded in our laws and culture unlike in countries which do not have a strong Christian tradition. Imo the way society is set up at the moment where many can't afford children as mortgages are based on two salaries and people are only valued on their tax contribution to society (which the left should disagree with) has made both women and men unhappier. That is what Miriam thinks too. People like us have a right to be represented in a democracy and if elected that would reflect the majority opinion. The people in power have always imposed their view on people that don't agree (ie me for the last 20 years), actually the govt atm of which miriam is not a part, refect very few peoples view and don't do anything the people want.

So we agree that the existence of Christian/Pagan/fundamentally human festivals isn't necessarily an indicator we live in a religious country then?

I think house prices and childcare costs are outrageous BTW. But prefer Labour's approach of building more homes so demand is reduced and prices come down, and putting in place more affordable and flexible childcare that means parents have more choice of whether to work and how much.

If you read the Times article linked in her thread, it's actually pretty shocking the disparity in available childcare in rich vs. poor areas of the country

Yes, Winter Solstice became Christmas, for example ( the point of light in the darkest night), but that doesn't negate the many hundreds of years of Christian custom, practice, social developments or tradition.Societies develop over time via modication and absorption of other influences - but that bedrock remains in the collective unconscious and shapes the group identity.

The West has a Christian bedrock, beneath which is a more pagan bedrock. Images and symbolism are reflective of individual cultures as well as of human society more generally. Practices, customs, learnings don't arise out of nothing.

I'm sure you aware of the Jungian diagram of the psyche - with the individual consciousnes above the surface, the individual unconscious beneath the surface, and then even deeper roots in the social and then collective unconscious forming the bedrock below.