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Original poster

Primary schools given advice on children who want to change gender (supposedly now agreed)

64 replies

IwantToRetire · 16/12/2023 18:21

The government had been planning to introduce an outright ban on social transitioning, under which children can change their names, pronouns and uniforms.
However, Victoria Prentis, the attorney-general, said that an outright ban would be unlawful under the Equality Act and would require new legislation.

The guidance will instead urge schools to proceed with caution and allow pupils to identify as the opposite sex only in limited circumstances.

Schools will be urged to take particular care with younger children amid concerns that social transitioning could have a more significant impact.

The guidance will also ensure that nearly all parents are informed if their children tell staff that they want to change their gender identity, except for children with safeguarding issues. Campaigners have raised concerns that many parents are being kept in the dark.

Ministers had weighed up putting the legislation on a statutory footing. However, Prentis said that a blanket ban would be unlawful because the Equalities Act states that gender reassignment is a “protected characteristic”, regardless of age. She gave the same advice when ministers asked whether there could be a ban on social transitioning for primary school children.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/primary-schools-children-change-gender-caution-new-guidance-9fzhbp66z

Also at https://archive.ph/XuEfX

Primary schools given advice on children who want to change gender

Internal party rows have delayed guidance on how to treat transgender children at school

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/primary-schools-children-change-gender-caution-new-guidance-9fzhbp66z

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theilltemperedclavecinist · 19/12/2023 11:54

SaffronSpice · 19/12/2023 11:04

I thought that the proportionate and legitimate test applied only to sex discrimination so could not be used to excuse gender reassignment discrimination.

The comparator for a male with the PC of gender reassignment is other males. It is not direct discrimination to stop him using female spaces and sports. It would be direct discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment to stop him using male spaces and sports.

Indirect discrimination can always be lawful for any protected characteristic if there is good enough reason for the conditions that give rise to it.

That will teach me to look things up first! You are correct that this test is universal for all protected characteristics and for both direct and indirect discrimination so my pipe dream of getting rid of it for single sex spaces will have to remain just that.

The problem is that the bar is being set stupidly high. And the Haldane decision. And Victoria Prentis's advice that failing to make provision for trans people - who feel they really can't use the facilities for their own sex - is indirect discrimination because other members of their own sex are not disadvantaged in the same way.

SaffronSpice · 19/12/2023 11:04

I thought that the proportionate and legitimate test applied only to sex discrimination so could not be used to excuse gender reassignment discrimination.

The comparator for a male with the PC of gender reassignment is other males. It is not direct discrimination to stop him using female spaces and sports. It would be direct discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment to stop him using male spaces and sports.

Indirect discrimination can always be lawful for any protected characteristic if there is good enough reason for the conditions that give rise to it.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 19/12/2023 10:02

SaffronSpice · 18/12/2023 19:47

Indirect discrimination is lawful if it is proportionate and has a legitimate aim, for example for prevent direct discrimination against girls by providing single sex spaces and sports.

Show quote history

I thought that the proportionate and legitimate test applied only to sex discrimination so could not be used to excuse gender reassignment discrimination. Either way, it's a genuine conflict between trans and female rights, thanks to bad drafting.

My preference would be to remove the test altogether, so that female-only spaces revert to being always possible and sometimes mandatory.

Then, to avoid indirect discrimination against trans people, institutions would be forced to provide third spaces, which would have been the right solution all along.

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 18/12/2023 20:11

Anyone would think the Government has been reading this thread. I seem to remember at the start of the thread there were posts about how the EA has been undermined by the GRA.

At least the Government is prepared to put out a statement making clear how the EZ is meant to be used. No hierarachy.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 18/12/2023 19:59

Whilst hopefully encouraging third spaces

WarriorN · 18/12/2023 19:59

It's a good foundation for sex based rights being upheld

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 18/12/2023 19:57

Many people are under the misconception that the act protects groups. It does not. It is about protected characteristics. It is important to remember that every single person has a protected characteristic therefore the act protects all individuals. The 9 protected characteristics in the act are:

  • age
  • disability
  • gender reassignment
  • marriage and civil partnership
  • pregnancy and maternity
  • race
  • religion or belief
  • sex
  • sexual orientation
I would like to be clear that there is no ‘hierarchy of rights’ under the act, therefore we should not hold one protected characteristic in higher regard than another.

Letter from Kemi Baddenoch to Public Authorities https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/public-sector-equality-duty-guidance-for-public-authorities/letter-to-public-authority-leaders-from-the-minister-for-women-and-equalities

Letter to public authority leaders from the Minister for Women and Equalities

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/public-sector-equality-duty-guidance-for-public-authorities/letter-to-public-authority-leaders-from-the-minister-for-women-and-equalities

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Original poster
IwantToRetire · 18/12/2023 19:52

From the above:

Someone has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if they are proposing to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone a process or part of a process to reassign their sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex. Authorities should take care to undertake their assessment by reference to the protected characteristics set out in the act. They should not use concepts such as gender or gender identity, which are not encoded in the act and can be understood in different ways.

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SaffronSpice · 18/12/2023 19:49

However, Prentis said that a blanket ban would be unlawful because the Equalities Act states that gender reassignment is a “protected characteristic”, regardless of age.

I would not be taking legal advice from someone who calls the Equality Act the Equalities Act. It is also a clear sign of being stonewalled.

SaffronSpice · 18/12/2023 19:47

thirdfiddle · 16/12/2023 19:06

Not a lawyer, but I think there may be an indirect discrimination claim.
Not allowing children to pretend to be the other sex at school, while applied equally to all children, might be considered to be disproportionately making school difficult to access for children with the protected characteristic and therefore indirect discrimination.

That doesn't mean you have to let them use the opposite sex loos or change for swimming with the opposite sex, or indeed that it wouldn't be deemed discriminatory to other children if you did let them. A reasonable adjustment should be reached like letting them use a staff loo, or change in a single cubicle, or change before/after the other children, or something.

As I say I'm not a lawyer so this might be completely wrong and interested to hear from any actual legal bods.

Indirect discrimination is lawful if it is proportionate and has a legitimate aim, for example for prevent direct discrimination against girls by providing single sex spaces and sports.

WarriorN · 18/12/2023 19:37

Adding this here as v interesting

x.com/transgendertrd/status/1736718190976135467?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Primary schools given advice on children who want to change gender (supposedly now agreed)
Primary schools given advice on children who want to change gender (supposedly now agreed)
WarriorN · 18/12/2023 15:10

This really isn't rocket science.

But clearly schools / teachers and some parents need it spelling out in great detail.

WarriorN · 18/12/2023 15:09

There's no parallel with being trans and being gay from the point of view that you do not need irreversible medical intervention to be gay.

Being gay has no impact on others eg males wanting to access female loos and changing spaces, sports and potentially sleeping spaces when on school trips. Being trans and being treated as the opposite sex, affirmed, potentially can.

Teens can spend time considering if they're gay, straight or bi and it doesn't physically harm them, nor (as long as the law, consent boundaries and respect is applied and followed) have the potential harm anyone else.

Therefore it cannot be treated/ approached in the same way by the adults who are loco in parentis for these children and responsible for their safety.

Oldhampearshoproad · 18/12/2023 14:57

There's no parallel with being gay.
There is no parallel and there never was.

Don’t most children with gender dysphoria or who say they’re trans turn out to be gay?
Why is that, what’s the connection?

It's not an indicator of sexual abuse either,
You’re not aware of any connections?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535560/

Does Maltreatment in Childhood Affect Sexual Orientation in Adulthood?

Epidemiological studies find a positive association between physical and sexual abuse, neglect, and witnessing violence in childhood and same-sex sexuality in adulthood, but studies directly assessing the association between these diverse types of malt...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535560/

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/12/2023 13:05

GrammarTeacher · 18/12/2023 12:28

I wouldn't. The DSL would. So I certainly wouldn't tell a parent! I would encourage the student to speak to the parents at the point they told me. I would then inform the DSL and the notes from the conversation would form part of my recording on our system. As is the correct procedure.

Exactly. You would follow safeguarding procedures. You wouldn't promise confidentiality, you wouldn't keep a secret & you would behave professionally. I haven't seen any posters on here disagreeing with that.

Re encouraging a child to tell their parent - it depends what it's about. I've been a DSL in 3 different schools and know that suggesting a child should talk to their parents (without prior agreement from the DSL) could put that child in danger.

The whole point of KCSIE is to protect children by ensuring that the adults around them act in role as teachers and refer children at risk to their DSL. The current onslaught on schools from transactivists trying to persuade them to step away from KCSIE and treat these children outside safeguarding procedures is both shameful and dangerous.

ResisterRex · 18/12/2023 12:36

There's no parallel with being gay. Being gay does not involve changing your name, saying you "need" access to opposite sex facilities and opportunities, or being set on a medical pathway or any of that. It's not an indicator of sexual abuse either, which a trans identity increasingly looks to be a response to (see: Cass). None of it. There is no parallel and there never was.

WarriorN · 18/12/2023 12:31

It could also indicate contact with older people who could be influencing the child irl or on line.

Which could involve inappropriate contact and communication/ grooming

WarriorN · 18/12/2023 12:30

"Outing" is the wrong analogy and term here.

How would you approach pronouns?

By using them for a child you'll be essentially diagnosing the child without the child's parents knowing and without medical supervision. We are not allowed to do that for any other condition. We aren't even strictly speaking allowed to say "we think your child may be autistic." It's all about working with parents to establish a bigger picture and referring the child on.

If teachers have concerns about a child's behaviour or learning they have a duty of care to discuss with the parents. This is a behavioural change. It could also indicate contact with older people who could be influencing the child irl or on line.

The whole point is that this should be seen as something serious enough for all adults in the child's life to be aware of. It's not like coming out as gay.

GrammarTeacher · 18/12/2023 12:28

I wouldn't. The DSL would. So I certainly wouldn't tell a parent! I would encourage the student to speak to the parents at the point they told me. I would then inform the DSL and the notes from the conversation would form part of my recording on our system. As is the correct procedure.

Floisme · 18/12/2023 12:25

GrammarTeacher · 18/12/2023 12:19

The guidance, many experts and DSLs and other relevant professionals don't agree with many of the people on this board. I would ALWAYS encourage a student to speak to their parents. I wouldn't out a student to their parents. This isn't Florida.

Given that you've said in an earlier post that you don't have safeguarding responsibilities, surely the first step would be to consult the appropriate lead? Why would you even be thinking of taking such a decision on your own?

GrammarTeacher · 18/12/2023 12:19

The guidance, many experts and DSLs and other relevant professionals don't agree with many of the people on this board. I would ALWAYS encourage a student to speak to their parents. I wouldn't out a student to their parents. This isn't Florida.

WarriorN · 18/12/2023 12:07

What really horrifies me is that truly vulnerable children with send and / or autism or histories of csa show up more highly in stats for teens being referred to GIDS.

Teachers NEED to be getting their heads around this stuff as it's these children that appear to get targeted the most by trans activists.

Green party's Man in a dress being the most recent case example.

It's like moths around a bloody flame.

EasternStandard · 18/12/2023 12:05

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/12/2023 11:55

Wow. A children's sex change charity with paedophile / adult porn scandals involving trustees and staff is openly undermining proposed government guidance on mentally vulnerable children confused about their sex?

Why are they so determined that this cohort must be exempt from national safeguarding guidance?

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WarriorN · 18/12/2023 12:03

Honestly, I do think some teachers exist in a holier than thou bubble.

All the safeguarding training I've ever had has always had case studies to illustrate where things went wrong and why.

This needs to be in KCSIE with worked case studies.