Dating as a TERF

Even if you personally believe trans women are men.

That's not a belief, that's a fact. You're banging on about facts but failing to grasp the most obvious one.

The small numbers argument is /stupid/.

Very few attacks are on record in unisex public toilets by 23 yr old men called Cedric. It might even be none. With a name like that, they're liable to get bullied in the men's. Should we let Cedrics into the women's loos accordingly? And if we did, how would we make sure they weren't really called Brian and only pretending to be Cedric?

What statistics?

If sex and gender are different, why the fuckity fuck should there be any assumption whatsoever that these things should match?

Sex means male or female.

Male = penis and testes.
Female = ovaries, uterus and vagina.

What does gender mean? Can you define it in any way?

What are the characteristics of the "male gender"? Is it liking beer and football?
What are the characteristics of the "female gender"? Is it painting your nails pink and being shit at parking?

Do you think that liking beer and football "matches" having a penis and liking pink nail varnish and being shit at parking "matches" having ovaries, uterus and a vagina?

If yes, the 1950s called, they want to know what time you'll be back. Oh, and they want you to get in the kitchen and make them a sandwich?

If that's not what you think, then what the actual fuck DO you think?

What are the features of the gender identity that goes with being female and what are the features of the gender identity that goes with being male?

If you can't describe them, what makes you think they actually exist?

Do you realise that many people, in fact probably the majority of people, do not really have anything that could be described as a gender identity? They just see themselves as a person, who is either male or female, with a personality?

I believe that dysphoria is real but I think that having dysphoria, or even a gender identity, has got absolutely fuck all to do with whether you are a man or a woman. It's a mental health issue, or in some cases apparently just a set of personality traits, political views and fashion choices.

I'm not naïve enough to think that we can fix people's gender dysphoria simply by pointing out that no one else has an identity which matches their penis or their vagina either, and so having an identity which you believe doesn't match your penis or your vagina doesn't make you different, it makes you the same as everyone else. But that is the reality.

Finally, I don't give a shit about the statistics. The number of women or girls attacked, frightened or otherwise made to feel even vaguely uncomfortable by a male person in a female only space - regardless of that male person's personal identity - should be zero. Because the number of male people in that space should be zero.

The number of women and girls attacked by a male person claiming to identify as a woman in a female only space is not zero though.

The numbers are so small, a case by case basis works

Surely you look at the chromosomes xx or xy to determine whether you're male or female?!

Case by case lol. No, never.

Most women also want to be left alone to live their lives without needing to worry about members of the opposite sex in their single sex spaces and sports.

The whole 'but it's such a tiny amount, you are more likely to get attacked by a woman than a trans woman in a toilet' is such a shite argument.

No attacks need to happen for women to be able to be in spaces free of penised males, however they identify. Why is that so difficult to understand? Women need and deserve single SEX spaces. Once you allow TW in, they become MIXED SEX.

My dad and brother - as far as I'm aware - would never harm a woman, however if they woke up tomorrow and felt womanly feels, I still wouldn't advocate for them to be in those spaces as their mere presence might make women uncomfortable.

And what on earth is a girly girl?!

So how do you decide who is allowed into a public changing room "on a case by case basis" then?

So Nt1993, are you going to respond to Arthurbella.

Since you have insisted that women recount their trauma so they can be justified, in your opinion, that they are protected in their single sex spaces?

Have you got any idea in your head how many women and girls answering that yes, they have been attacked by a particular group of male people in the female toilet, is going to satisfy you that those activating to protect all female people are worthy of not being scolded by you at the very least?

How many more need to recount their trauma for you to not shame women who use parameters based on current safeguarding principles instead of ‘being kind’? You are the one insisted that it is a numbers game after all. Do you understand where that leads?

What happens if one of those female people in the future is someone you love? Do you own up to trying to shame into silence those who saw the breaks in safeguarding and attempted to close those loop holes? Or do you just tell that female person to stuff down that trauma because those male people deserve to be allowed to use the female safe spaces to make them feel accepted?

I wouldn't describe myself as a TERF, because I wouldn't exclude anyone from feminism. Anyone can be a feminist.

However, if the subject came up I would state that men cannot become women and should not be be women's safe spaces or sports, but they can wear whatever they want. If a man I was dating had a problem with that I would try to convince him otherwise, then call it quits if he couldn't be convinced. No need to make a big deal of it though, it's one facet of your personality, not your entire being.

Saying you're a Strike/Ellacott fan is better, I think.

I'm in a parenting group where there is a small subset of Potterheads who continue to love Harry Potter because they've been fans since before JKR turned out to be a disappointing bigot but they won't endorse any of her newer work.

Make it make sense.

How many times have you been sexually attacked by a trans person within one of these spaces? Or how many people do you know who have been harmed by a trans person in any of these spaces? You are statistically far more likely to be attacked by another AFAB woman than by a trans woman in these spaces.

Well, it's only my own personal experience, but:

Sexual assault by a transwoman in a loo: once
Sexual assault by a woman in a loo: zero

Once was enough, tbh.

Yes. Quite.

Imagine telling feminists that they can only care about protecting women and children AFTER they, personally, have been attacked. It is absolutely ludicrous. But here we are.

There's so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to begin.

"TERF" is a slur, and a pretty meaningless one to be honest. The people you label "TERFs" are not trans exclusionary, they're male exclusionary. They believe that feminism is for female people, including trans men and non binary people who are female, but not male people. This is feminism 101, just basic feminism, there's nothing at all radical about this idea.

The better term is gender critical, which means what it says on the tin: critical of gender.

The rise of androgyny through the glam rock/new romantic movement was inherently gender critical. Basically, "these boxes are regressive bullshit, men can wear lipstick and eyeliner and women can shave their heads if they want to, let people express themselves how they want".

That actually is progressive.

People like David Bowie challenged gender stereotypes and had fun with them. They didn't claim to be women.

The current generation of gender ideologues aren't challenging gender stereotypes at all, they are upholding and reinforcing them. They're not saying a man can wear lipstick, they're saying that if a man wears lipstick he is a woman because a woman is just a person who wears lipstick.

I have no idea how you can claim that is progressive with a straight face.

None of this has anything to do with challenging gender stereotypes, because guess what? Men and women can challenge gender stereotypes without men needing access to women's changing rooms, prisons and rape crisis groups and without being allowed to compete in women's sports.

And children can challenge gender stereotypes by wearing whatever clothes they like and playing with whatever toys and having whatever hobbies they want without needing puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and surgery to destroy their perfectly healthy bodies and future fertility.

Finally, if you think there is an argument against "natural born males", aka "males" in women's sports, guess what?

1. You don't actually believe "natural born males" are really women, and
2. That actually makes you a "TERF".

But if you think it's unfair for "natural born males" to compete in women's sports but fine for them to be housed in women's prisons and allowed to join women's rape crisis groups, you need to take a long hard look at yourself. Because caring about the sporting opportunities of young, attractive, privileged female athletes but not about the basic human rights of some of the most vulnerable women in our society is pretty grim really.

How about saying you're a Harry Potter fan (or Strike/Ellacott fan). Will put off gender evangelicals but not put off men who are actually gender critical themselves but haven't thought about the issues and have vaguely heard that terf is bad.

I am in fact a AFAB pregnant lady

LOL at someone who thinks sex is assigned at birth trying to 'educate' us. Much hubris.

sex and gender are different

Yes. Which is why we have single sex spaces, not single gender spaces. Have any gender you like, as long as you use the spaces for your sex.

some people experience the horrendous life of being trapped in a body which does not correlate with their own gender identity. It must be a living hell for them.

I am trapped in the body of a 48 year old, despite my age identity being 21. See how ridiculous that is?

How many times have you been sexually attacked by a trans person within one of these spaces? Or how many people do you know who have been harmed by a trans person in any of these spaces? You are statistically far more likely to be attacked by another AFAB woman than by a trans woman in these spaces.

So we can only object to things which happen to us or people we know? Like the Rotherham sex abuse scandal, I can't care about that because it didn't happen to me? Or Gaza, I'm not allowed to care about it unless I know someone there? What a sad worldview.

Please post your statistics re the likelihood of being attacked by a woman. I would genuinely be very interested, not least because crimes committed by males who say they are women get recorded as having been committed by women, so I am very keen to see any study which broke down offenders into actual women and transwomen. Happy to wait.

I do actually think a lot of people don't really think about it, they just say oh ok I guess twaw is the new thing without considering what it really means.

You seem nice.

Without knowing more about how you are actually bringing it up in conversation, OP, it's difficult to say.

I can actually imagine this being a problem if you are a left wing, Labour supporting, remain voting, university educated, city dwelling 30-something and looking for a similar type of partner.

Unfortunately I think at the moment there is a worrying trend for certain people, particularly in demographics such as this one, to get their political views as a sort of package deal, i.e. "if you are with us on Brexit, the NHS and Israel vs Palestine you must also be with us on trans issues". This means that a lot of people belonging to that particular political tribe will just take the view that TWAW without really giving it much thought because they don't want to rock the boat or be excommunicated for having problematic views. The inevitable result is that potential partners who are politically compatible with you in other ways are likely to say that TWAW and it is bigoted to believe otherwise, and potential partners who are willing to say, "of course trans women are not women" may well have other political views you find unpalatable.

I don't know what the answer is.

I too would not want to date a man who believes that women are bigoted for wanting single sex spaces and sports. At best, I would consider dating a man with this viewpoint if it was just that he had been living in such an echo chamber that he had never considered the impact of this ideology on women before, and once I had put a few hard questions to him about sports and prisons and rape crisis groups he substantially modified his views. But any man who thinks that women should just be kind and make way for trans women in all our single sex spaces regardless of what impact it has on us can get in the bin, quite frankly. He has no skin in the game. He's a man, it's up to him to be kind and inclusive of members of his own sex with different gender identities.

At the same time, would I identify myself as a "TERF" on my dating profile? Probably not. I think it would most likely scare off some perfectly nice, well-meaning blokes. I'd just try to casually work the topic into conversation at an early stage, probably in the context of politics in general by saying that I am now politically homeless because I am a natural Labour voter but I can't get on board with their current views on women and single sex spaces, and take it from there.

It's the mantra 'transwomen are women'

However, like it or not, a lot of people think that TWAW. I don't want to date those people.

What is a TWAW?

I’m reminded of this 😆

”look at these frightful harridans”

It's a variant on 'if you're not a good girl people won't like you' isn't it? 😂

Women! Embrace misogyny and male supremacism if you want a boyfriend or you'll be left on the shelf.

Nah mate. Many men are a lot nicer and more emotionally developed than this. Plenty of them like that in my life. They don't want to make women uncomfortable or exclude them either.

Usually post them on Twitter or their Facebook groups