Dating as a TERF

There is no middle ground between "trans women are women" and "trans women are not women".

Either they are or they aren't.

And if they are, I have no idea what one is, who is supposed to be in this group and why we need a word for it.

I think it has been well established now on MN and in expert debates, that 'middle ground' is not ever going to be a workable solution. Because there is no fucking middle ground. It is something that someone who has no fucking depth of understanding says to make themselves feel good and righteous.

Middle ground to them is like this 'case by case' solution. It is completely unworkable in real life. But again, it is like a panacea to those people who don't want to appear bigoted. I am at the point that unless a poster can explain the details of their own solution, them calling others extreme or bigots or whatever they feel makes them personally feel empowered and righteous, are people who have no critical thinking ability to actually analyse what they are saying. They say it as a defence mechanism.

They may even realise it is empty words, but cannot let go for fear of understanding that they themselves are bereft of that wonderful libertarianism they cling to. Because what they actively advocate for- harms women and children. They just don't want to admit it.

It is not 'extreme' to say that women have rights. Nor that there are only two sexes, and that it's not possible to change sex.

It's not 'sane' or 'middle ground' to suggest that men should be enabled, permitted, included or celebrated in women's spaces, sports, or rights.

Unless you are advocating for everything everywhere to be mixed sex, of course.

If there is a need for women to have certain things separate, then that has to be based on sex. There's no way of categorising people by 'gender' that makes any sense at all. It doesn't matter if a man really feels like he wants to be in with the women - he is not a woman, no matter what he says or feels or does.

@DC1888 I would be very grateful if you would explain what you mean by trans women are women?

I don't know if I understand what it means or not.

Let me explain..
Out of wanting to do the right thing I used to pretend that TWAW, but now I think I may have been bigoted as I didn't believe that and was just pretending it out of kindness. My understanding was that other people also pretended.

It completely blew my mind the first time I heard "trans woman are women". It was on the radio and I can still picture myself at the traffic lights realising that if I'd really believed a TW acquaintance to be a woman I'd have bought that person a bottle of booze like my other mates for their birthday rather than something stereotypically feminine that i felt showed I was supporting them in being trans and that would make them happier than the generic present because it was an affirming present.

So when they say trans women are women. It is about a firm belief? They're exactly the same? How does one juggle the cognitive disonnance? Is it about just accepting anyone who looks like they might be a trans woman can use any women's space and resources because then you're treating them like you believe they're a woman?

So far you have expressed views that would be considered bigoted on this very thread.

What is it exactly that Margot has expressed that is 'extreme' to you? She is articulating the major issues with 'case by case', which I believe that YOU have been on this thread saying is the solution. It is not a solution because it is completely unworkable in real life.

Please, tell us on this thread, exactly how you see your own suggestion working to keep women and children safe and protected.

Because so far, you are throwing plenty of accusations around saying others are 'nutty', yet weren't you the poster who actually used the term 'hermaphodite' in relation to humans? That is not just 'nutty' it is just plain ignorant.

MargotBamborough · Today 13:30

But how can you let nice harmless trans women in and keep him out?

Ah, I've got it now; you can see why I'd actually believe that he had decided he was a woman, it's far from beyond the realms of possibility.

Thanks for the ideas, I think I'll wait another year or so, I have made similar comments, but they're not well received. I think it's because of her friend "Polly," although a while back, she did do a double take and sat back and went quiet, when a local "character" got on the Metro.

Them wears fetish type gear and has long blonde bunches (here's a pint of mind bleach, btw...) and swaggers and talks like many blokes.

Recognising the necessity of and advocating for female-only spaces is an extreme view?

And if you let the nice harmless lovely ones in, even if they've personally been soul-checked by Layla Moran on the door,

some women will still have to leave and not be able to use the resource. Because it will be mixed sex.

These women are tax payers. They are equally entitled to access and resources, that their taxes pay for.

You cannot think that it's ok to exclude some women from anything so that men can choose from everything unless you fundamentally believe in the supremacy of people born male. Outside of happy alternative realities, there's no getting around the fact that these women have needs too and this circle cannot ever be squared. The only answer is third spaces.

DC1888, but what you are describing as the workings of the nutty left, is what has led to women losing single sex sports, services and even prisons. So what should happen now, if you don't want a blanket ban but case by case? Seeing as the Scottish government is deeming case by case means 'nice' prisoners who say they are women should be allowed access to womens prisons so they can 'practice' being a women, with nobody bothering to ask if women want to practiced'?

Somebody needs to draw a legal line that provides equal rights to all women and all (genuine and non genuine) transwomen. So it is not self id for a GRC. Then what is it? Medical diagnosis? Gender dysphoria is no longer a medical condition so how would that work? And also, why should women lose their rights, because some male person has gender dysphoria?

I think the major problem in regards to this issue is liberals (which I include myself) went extreme by basically saying anyone who says they are female, well fill yer boots, no evaluations, no nothing, you are now a female. This nutty policy then caused the other side to become extreme (terfs, "radical feminists", being an example.). MargotBamborough on this thread, this is the extreme end of the scale. As a society we lost the middle (sane/tolerant) ground.

The ridiculous ease with which people can change gender (for example in the Scottish bill which the UK Gov correctly blocked) caused the like of JK Rowling to speak out. The nutty proposals of the far left created this issue.

No, as far as I'm aware he isn't.

But how can you let nice harmless trans women in and keep him out?

If someone like Levi Bellfield is capable of abducting, raping and murdering school girls in broad daylight, I'm pretty sure he's capable of saying, "I identify as a woman".

So clearly the eligibility criteria for using women's spaces can't be based on someone saying they identify as a woman, because literally anyone could say that, including you.

Try saying it to your daughter.

"OK, Lucy. I identify as a woman. As of five seconds ago. Is it now OK for me to use women's changing rooms with you and your friends?"

Once she acknowledges that someone just saying they identify as a woman isn't enough, you then say, "OK, so if the eligibility requirement for using women's spaces can't be "this person says they identify as a woman", because anyone can say that, and it can't be "this person is biologically female", because that would exclude trans women, can you explain what you think the rule should be which would actually work to let nice harmless trans women who just want to pee in, and keep Levi Bellfield out."

Yes.

And of course the only way to provide facilities that are inclusive and accessible to all female people.

Otherwise you end up with some female people having nothing at all so that all male people can take their preferred choice of everything.

On a binary, sexed basis.

After all, we're not just talking about male people who identify as transwomen, we're talking about all kinds of identities, inclusive of non binary, fluid, Pips Bunce who is a woman some days and not others, Izzard who varies according to what mode he is in, and so on.

MargotBamborough · Today 12:47

I would show your daughter a picture of Levi Bellfield and ask whether he should be allowed to use women's toilets and changing rooms. Explain who he is if she doesn't know.

Is he one too, now? I obviously know about Pink Leggings, "Karen" White and Andrew Miller. Are the bastards on a recruitment drive?

😔

Tbh I'd not put that on my dating profile, but then I wouldn't want to date someone who believes in the gender fairies either so it would be doing me a favour really.

Ya and it’s an immediate swipe left for me along with anyone who puts their vaccine status- it’s a dating app not medical research.

Think OLD shows many men have no idea what pronouns mean as loads have he/she/they or other combinations that make no sense.

Bingo. It's the almighty dick pandering which gets to me.

I mentioned small numbers purely as a means to state that a case by case thorough evaluation is doable.

So how what that would work, just go with your gut feel? Is there a set of criteria when a male person should be allowed to access services and sports? And what should you do if women object to the presence of a male person? And what if you say no, based on your gut feel or set of criteria and the male person objects to being told no?
And what if a man who in no way meets the criteria, demands access, after all, other male person get access so why not him? Isn't that discrimination?

What you see happening, is that all male people get access, transwomen and men, because it easier to tell women to suck it up than get threatened with lawsuits and be on the receiving end of social media attacks.

This is why most women, after doing some thorough investigation, want to go back to a blanket ban on all male people, regardless of their internal identity feelings. Because that is the only way you can keep the bad male people out.

I'm not on dating apps, do a lot of people put pronouns ?

I would show your daughter a picture of Levi Bellfield and ask whether he should be allowed to use women's toilets and changing rooms. Explain who he is if she doesn't know.

When she says no of course not, ask her what system we could put in place which allows genuine and harmless trans women into women's toilets but keeps people like Levi Bellfield out.

Since you cannot ask to see anyone's genitals or their gender recognition certificate before allowing them to use a toilet or a changing room, and even if you could, the majority of toilets and changing rooms are not staffed by people employed for this purpose, it is not possible to decide on a case by case basis.

Either you say single sex means single sex and even a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate who has had their penis removed cannot use women's single sex spaces, or you say any man who wants to use a women's space for any reason is free to do so.

There is actually no middle ground here, because it is impossible to implement.

At least with sports and prisons people can't just barge their way in, there is some sort of gatekeeping by people in positions of authority.

How is this meant to work, in real life though? Who is evaluating men with lady feelz on a case by case basis outside the swimming pool changing rooms/ public loos/ hospital bays? And by what criteria are they deciding yes or no? And what authority do they have to tell the person yes or no? You know most TW have no surgery, right? And most don't have a GRC, and even if they do you're legally not allowed to ask to see it? How is this going to work?

PS what is the difference between 'males who try to masquerade as females' and any other male who says he's a woman?

PPS you do know that gatekeeping is very transphobic, don't you? Anyone who says they're trans, is trans, that's the criteria. That's it. Congratulations, you're a TERF.

Bingo

ArthurbellaScott · Today 12:09

So if they rape you, bingo, they were of the former type, but if they don't, then they are the latter?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's exactly what I want my currently captured (ten year old) daughter to be able to understand and process.

I think I'd have offered tissues and the phone to call the crisis team and have kept a careful distance from them from then on....

This ideology is unfortunately heavily populated by people with significant vulnerabilities and problems, and you can't have a conversation with that kind of irrationality and extreme emotion. I mean, someone who's going to actually be reduced to tears by the thought of women's equality and child safeguarding.... fgs.

MargotBamborough · Today 10:52

The only reason they are prioritised in this way is because they are NOT women. If they were, society wouldn't give a shit about them.

Tragically, that sums it up perfectly.