It's started in Irish dancing too. 14 year old trans child wins world qualifying event

@Greyheart1
The dancer in Australia is female - I highlighted them as they are one of the less usual cases where it’s not a male muscling into the female category for an easy win. The business of “validation” is still an unacceptable demand though: humans cannot change sex & the divisions are sex-based, nothing to do with gender (though one might reasonably argue the typical costume requirements for said divisions are highly gendered; as we’ve seen on this thread how far that’s the case varies hugely & further is an issue to be addressed without any suggestion that girls who don’t fancy dancing in mad frocks must be boys).

@EtiennePalmiere so you’re not with Pointe Magazine &/or a big fan of Chase Johnsey or indeed The Trocks? 🤣 I think Bennett’s being pretty harsh on himself (tbf, the man has zero ego) when he talks about “just hoofing around” as Bottom (zero ego but shameless with the puns) in this 2020 “Dance Spirit” article about men doing pointe - & I think it’s become even more common since that was written. Wayne McGregor’s weird “Carbon Life” has lots of male pointe work in - but that really WAS hoofing about. Ed Watson’s got quite into pointe, I think - it’s that thing about perfectionists being driven to learn. Even some (serious, as it were) male recreational dancers learn pointe - for strength, to improve technique, & to improve their partnering (as well as for the sheer joy of it). Men - with all their extra fast twitch muscles - might find some female rep easier: bloody bastard cygnets being an obvious example…

Frankly men in women’s roles in classical ballet is absolute bollocks: classical ballet demands a certain aesthetic & while you might say it shouldn’t &/or it’s unfair & God knows it causes all kinds of problems - the fact remains it is the case & either that body shape & size is acceptable or it’s not. No “as you have special genderfeels you are allowed to take a space for which the levels of competition are INSANE despite not meeting the aesthetic or technique requirements”. Tamara Rojo was treated truly abysmally by Derek Deane when she danced with ENB (she put on enough weight to not die from the anorexia nervosa she’d developed after joining the Company & - knowing this - he told her she’d got fat & had to lose weight) so I wonder if she’s been fed (Chase Johnsey dancing with ENB happened on her watch) a Wrong Body narrative & felt sorry for him. She also knows a TW personally through work who is very sweet, & which will probably cloud things.

BalletWorld has of course had that massive confusion over your one who’s been doing some RAD exams & prancing about in tutus & people got the wrong end of the stick thinking they’d somehow got a place at the RBS or similar 🤦‍♀️ Frankly it was daft of the RAD to promote them & if the great eejit was really after “passing” &/or being treated like everyone else they’d not have wanted their picture in the paper talking about being a TW in a tutu. Years ago a TW joined a recreational ballet class I did. It was far FAR too hard for her but she wouldn’t have it. She’d transitioned after the death of her spouse (well, she said they were dead 🤷‍♀️) & retiring & was clearly wealthy so built a home ballet studio; paid for private classes; booked into any summer course that would take her; & travelled down to London for class several days a week. She also had dozens of tutus that all cost hundreds of pounds. She clearly thought doing ballet would somehow confer femininity - when you’re built like a brick shithouse, squeezing yourself into a thin-strapped leotard that strains over your overlarge fake breasts & adding a practice skirt that, lacking sufficient fabric for your circumference, gapes at the front, is anything but feminine. Even if you trowel on the make-up. (Our teacher thought the skirt thing might have been - consciously or otherwise - to show that they were “a woman”; not realising that women aren’t going to go “oh, no penis, my mistake”). She was so disastrously bad - & incredibly arrogant - that my teacher wouldn’t allow us to be in the same group (of 2 or 3) crossing the studio because she was afraid I’d get badly injured. You do get people of both sexes who fancy themselves much better dancers than is the case; & people who are a hazard to shipping ditto - but thinking you are a dainty fairy ballerina not a dumpy fat bloke was a new one on me.

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, barring h&s rules, I wouldn't know anything official about that.

There's no problem for girls ! It's just not healthy for "girls" imo

In ballet men don't generally do pointe because they're heavier and it's therefore dangerous (and more painful). If they do it's pretty modified. In this case then a male might have lady feelings and compete as a woman, which has the usual problems for us in addition to hurting him physically.

To your other question I think Irish pointe might have less padding/harder shoes which might make it more dangerous.

Sorry for the derail ! Just shows how bad this is for everyone, I was honestly shocked.

@ElaineMBenes

That is… 😵‍💫
Though Dance Anatomy & Kineseology is a bit of a beast, it’s such important stuff it’s a bit mad teacher training bodies are all “sure you’ll be grand without that - but the ceilis are non-negotiable!”. And knowing how to deal with hyper-mobile dancers so they gain strength & proprioception & injury is minimised really matters - especially if it’s a style that involves anything like pointe work; & presumably sitting in/locking in sways can be an issue in Irish dancing too? (Sorry, am just boggled.)

One of my step-granddaughters does Irish dancing (in Ireland) and wears a kilt, as do all the dancers. Seems more sensible.
A boy winning a girls' competition is outrageous. As ever, inclusivity means excluding girls and women from their sports, and the governing body needs to change its unfair rules now.

@Greyheart1
Sorry, I maybe wasn’t clear earlier: WIDA haven’t a trans category; they’ve had a female person who identifies as “trans non-binary” dance (& win) in the women’s category. While said individual has apparently made big claims about being told they were allowed to do whatever made them most comfortable, as I said earlier, I’ve not been able to find anything from WIDA on the subject; & normally if an organisation lets you participate according to genderfeels, they proudly announce that. A governing body for sport that’s big in Ireland, Australia, Canada & the US would have reason to be sotto voce about believing in reality & women & girls having the right not to be trampled over by boys & men.

As I said earlier, a trans category - which seems the obvious answer, I know - won’t work. World Aquatics had to cancel their trans category at the Swimming World Cup this year because they got no entrants. There will be claims it is “outing” of course (vanishingly unlikely); but the reality is that it isn’t “validating” not to be allowed an unfair advantage. (Saying that, it should be noted there is a female dancer in Australia who identifies as male & now dances in the male category. Said individual’s writing makes it clear they wouldn’t want to dance in a trans category because they are so desperate to be seen & understood as male by others.)

No worries at all!
The teaching exams are pretty ridiculous imo.
You get no training, you rely on your own dance teacher and your own studies.

It includes nothing on anatomy, fitness, biology etc but you are expected to know all 30 ceili dances off by heart despite the vast majority of teachers never actually teaching ceili and if you do, you just refer to your book 🤷🏼‍♀️

Oh and I can identify every piece of set dance music and 'lilt' a reel 😂

You do 5 exams in one weekend and you need to get 70% or above in every exam to pass. If you get less than 50% in one exam then you have to resit all 5! If you ever plan on teaching in Ireland then there is also an Irish language exam.

Total de-rail but it was the most stressful thing I've ever done and I have a PhD 😂😂😂

Thank you, I saw it was a response but I wasn't sure if there was another layer to it. On my internet travels (trying to see what there is on the impact on the body), I think I saw that block work is somehow a bit more dangerous than it is in ballet (something to do with the type of movement?). But I was just interested to know!

I'd have thought anatomy would be part of teaching too. Just seems logical.

Thank you and sorry as I know that was a slight derail

I didn't say it was.... another poster suggested that.

I responded saying that point work - or blocks as we call it, is a step typically danced by female dancers. It's generally a stylistic thing rather than anything to do with anatomy. Girls will do quite intricate block work whereas boys don't tend to.

You don't get taught anything to do with anatomy when you do your teaching exams!! Which is an issue in itself I think as the sport develops.

I know this is way off the point, but if people are going to boycott is there any chance they could also reject the wearing of the ridiculous outfits, makeup and hairdos?

Irish dancing wasn't like this until relatively recently...I did it myself as a child. For one thing, the outfits make it expensive and out of reach of many families. And it just looks terrible dressing kids up like that, in my opinion anyway.

"Girls do in their heavy shoes - they're known as blocks. They're allowed to dance this step aged 12 upwards.
It's not a step danced by boys."

@ElaineMBenes why is going on pointe more risky for males? Or have I misunderstood?

Just wanted to point out for people suggesting WIDA have the right idea...I heard an radio interview with Sil (trans non-binary) who features in one of the articles linked up thread, and Sil spoke about how the organisation said they'd support them to dance however they wished, in whatever category they wished. God that's clunky with all the theys but hope you understand. I presume the same would then hold for a biological male who identified as trans non binary too. (What a surprise to see photos that confirm Sil is actually the sex my ears instantly identified!).

No worries! It's confusing!

To give context......
The competition being discussed is the regional qualifying round for the world championship. The only people allowed to compete are those that live in that geographical region.

If you qualify you get to compete at the world championships against all other competitors who have also qualified at their regional competition.

The dancer in question was 11th at the world championship earlier this year. He's just won his regional competition but competed in the girls section.
Last year he came 2nd in the boys section.
Had he competed in the boys section he would have still probably qualified. He might not have won as the winner last year came 4th in the worlds so would have been tough competition.

Yes.

From what I've read from activists in situations like this females are supposed to embrace their loss and suffering in a kind of medieval catholic masochism kind of way for the original sin of having been born female which makes them owe boys who feel they should have been girls. Or something.

But frankly, I am damned if I'm teaching a little girl it is her job to sacrifice, to surrender her ambition and success to enable vulnerable boys in a pretense of being a girl. Or that she must do whatever makes a sad male happy however sad it may make her. Just fuck that. Who'd do that to a child? It is as ridiculously sexist as fuck to only care that boys are happy and to tell girls to suck it up and think of others before themselves.

@ElaineMBenes ... ah... thanks for explaining..

He came 11th at the world championships.

In this same competition last year he came 2nd in the u13 boys category

@ElaineMBenes .. he was 11th in the male section earlier in the year...

Missing out on a qualifying place is heartbreaking anyway. But knowing you should have qualified is just a travesty.
If he'd competed in the boys competition he would have probably qualified anyway so there was no advantage to him competing in the girls group...... other than to make a point