Times article 100 women investigated over abortions

Relevant piece on the BBC:

Medics told not to report illegal abortions to police - BBC News

I've had several miscarriages, a few at 7 and 8 weeks, but three at 11, 12 and 13 weeks.

This is so worrying.

The stories are horrific. Before the 1967 Act the woman sometimes died https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/fear-death-life-1967-abortion-act/ If the woman managed without medical care there was no-one to report it, if she did need medical care some health care staff would have been sympathetic and not reported it. Women knew it was illegal so they avoided telling anyone who might report them if they could.

If we want support for abortion to continue then those who knowingly terminate late pregnancies need to be prosecuted. The police need to be a LOT more careful about who they investigate and to do so more sensitively. There needs to be fewer phone consultations, more in person appointments too. One phone call and one visit should be manageable.

I don't think the article is giving all the information, so it's really hard to say.

But no, the police aren't involved for every miscarriage over 10 weeks. If they are there, someone has, rightly or wrongly, thought something untoward is going on.

I'm confused about that case. Did the woman ring for an ambulance and then the paramedics arrived and found the woman resuscitating her premature baby? Then they rang the police? Seems odd if she rang for an ambiance but police arrived instead. Do the police investigate every case of a late term abortion/miscarriage?

Except that trust in the police is not guaranteed nor should it be assumed. I'd be fucking terrified if I'd had a miscarriage and the police arrived to search my bins and seize my phone/devices for evidence it wasn't a natural occurrence. I'm perimenopausal, my periods are not at all regular. It's entirely possible that I could be incorrect about how far along any unwanted pregnancy I might be, if I were unlucky enough to be in that situation. So I'd be immediately suspected of nefarious intent?

Do paramedics always call the police when they attend a miscarriage??

ambulance crews themselves have to call police if there's anything amisss, as once the police are there that releases the ambulance crew. We have had similar situations with palliative patients ,its also distressing for their families to have police attend if the police are interested in whether the patients has ended their own life or if family have assisted...i am equally sympathetic for those situations but we do have police investigations for good reasons.

again ,we shouldn't be conflating a miscarriage with a still birth at home after 24 weeks. That doesn't excuse abuses of what should be a clear & compassionate process but sadly some women (or their partners/family) may have criminal responsibility for the death and also in cases of unexpected death, the police are representing the coroner at this stage. www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/ber/bereavement/

60% of babies will survive at 24 weeks with a substantial risk of disability some of which will be significant. Many however will either have either no disability or minor ones.

For surviving babies born before 26 weeks (so 22-25) about half have right no disability (needing glasses etc).

Not quite as bleak as you suggest

But they aren't required to attend every miscarriage after 10 weeks, or every premature birth. I had a prem baby that needed rescuing from the emergency exit but had he done vaginally and is had a short labour/ been sent home until I was further along and had not delivered in a hospital, he's have died. Today is possible that is have had the police in my doorstep searching for abortion meds to see if it's killed him. That's not Progress

How often is this happening tho? How often does a woman past 24 week's abort a child at "home" that has no life affecting medical needs that would be covered by a TFMR?

This isn't even about the coroner raising concern, "Seven police officers arrived at the home of a woman who had called an ambulance when her baby was born prematurely, about 18 months ago. They searched her bins and provided no assistance while she performed mouth-to-mouth on her unconscious child, who was still attached to her placenta by umbilical cord. Mother and baby survived*
Seven officers on the back of a "help I'm in premature labour" arrived to ignore attempts to keep the supposedly nearly murdered baby alive. They didn't come to help the baby. And who the fuck even called them?
Oh, lady on the line claims she's in prem labour. I bet she tried to kill it and failed. Better call the police!!

It's possible for SOME babies to survive if born at 24 weeks, ALBEIT WITH SIGNIFICANT SENSORY, PHYSICAL AND COGNITIVE ISSUES

Fixed that for you

The cases described at the end of the article are truly chilling. The police asking for the names of all women who sought advice about abortion but then didn't continue to engage with BPAS, or who were scanned as past the 24 week limit?? Just, no. The idea that the police might turn up and demand to interview you because you once enquired about abortions??

And goodness knows what those 7 police officers thought they were doing, when a mother was trying to save her baby's life and they were searching her bins!

This particular case really terrifies me:

"In 2021 a woman was admitted to hospital in need of a surgical procedure after a stillbirth at 24 weeks as a result of abortion care sought within the formal healthcare system. While on the ward post-procedure, she was arrested and kept in a police cell for 36 hours without medical care."

She was arrested on the post-surgical ward and kept in a police cell for 36 hours with no medical care. What the absolute fuck? Will any police officers face any misconduct disciplinary action over this? No doubt there will no comeback or review of process over any of this. The spokesman for the National Police Chiefs’ Council seems to be passing the buck to medical professionals being the ones who initiate investigations.

surely an obstetrician would be able to rule out the cause?

I'm sure a professional would find out if a woman took abortion pills to trigger an abortion.

No. Depends on method, but an induced abortion can be difficult or impossible to detect with any degree of certainty. And an obstetrician is not - and should not be - a detective in the criminal sense.

A doctor carrying out investigations without a medical reason is beyond their remit and damages patient trust. Not just for that patient but for all - it means women experiencing pregnancy complications are less likely to seek help.

Abortion is a medical term, it doesn't imply that anything is illegal or unethical in itself. The same word is used for example in veterinary science. Things that are abortions, medically, aren't going to be reclassified because that is the correct term.

That's medical language, in everyday speech we tend to use it for human-induced abortion, and miscarriage for when it's not. Including in medical settings when people are just talking rather than recording with technical terms.

All of which is fine and not hard to understand as long as you know which are being used.

Most people don't support complete decriminalization or legalization of abortion at every stage, and feel there are other issues that need to be balanced around the rights of the human fetus, and also there are questions of safety and good medical practice for the mother.

The UK already has quite liberal abortion laws compared to most of Europe. It's probably always going to be very sensitive to investigate and manage situations where they may have been breached, but it does happen.

As someone born with a cleft palette, I agree about abortion for disability. If the disability will kill the child immediately or soon after birth, or is incompatible with life (like anencephaly) then a late-term abortion is a better solution (a baby with anencephaly was born to a friend and she was totally traumatized because the condition had not been diagnosed).

Unfortunately this article is conflating a number of issues - both showing inhumane treatment of women but also highlighting that there IS an issue of misuse of abortion pills in late stage pregnancy. It's poor reporting unfortunately as most people would agree these are different circumstances unless you personally believe in abortion at any stage of pregnancy, which isn't a popular opinion. Police are legally required to attend and investigate deaths of anyone at any age that occur unexpectedly in the home. This doesn't mean I'm excusing any of the inhumane behaviour documented in the article as a women procuring an illegal late stage abortion is likely to be in a fragile and vulnerable state.

When I talk of decriminalisation of abortion that doesn't mean without limit. I would never support abortion on demand up to term.

I'm not aware that induction of an intrauterine death/still birth is classified as an abortion. Inducing/delivering early for the mother's health eg severe pre-eclampsia or cancer is perfectly legal and in the context of a wanted baby how is this abortion? Every effort would be made to save the life of the baby as well. 24/40 babies can and do survive and before that of course survival is unlikely but that is within the legal limit for abortion.
I do have concerns regarding late termination for fetal abnormality and how that is interpreted as it could include eg Down's syndrome or cleft lip that has been diagnosed later in and the parents do not want despite the baby being perfectly viable.

There were bound to be problems with the prescribing of medical abortions without a face to face consultation and ultrasound scan to confirm gestation and perhaps there's a good argument for stopping this - during covid obviously it was difficult for women to attend and some women will always have problems around attending hospital appointments for various reasons but a later medical abortion can be risky for health reasons apart from the legal issues and many women will be unsure of dates or the gestation turns out to be different to what the woman thought so there are certainly good arguments to go back to restricting provision of medical abortions at home.

Really sorry to hear about the miscarriages. I can emphasise with you on that, unfortunately. I've heard miscarriage risk is higher in the first trimester so I don't think doctors investigate. I'm talking about later stage abortions. I'm sure a professional would find out if a woman took abortion pills to trigger an abortion.

Not meaning to be patronising, sorry. No-one ever worked out why I lost two pregnancies at 3 months and probably two earlier. But my aunt was unable to have children and my mother is Rhesus negative (though I am not), which might have been factors. I don't think it is that easy to spot a homemade abortion, but my situation was not one that any obstetrician would suspect. Early deliveries are carried out (28 weeks+) if the mother needs an invasive treatment, afaik.

What if there is something wrong with the mother?

@Grammarnut

"Late-term abortion" is a right-wing propaganda term and doesn't exist in reality since the pregnancy would have to be overdue at that point.

Yes I am aware that miscarriages are 'spontaneous abortions.' However, surely an obstetrician would be able to rule out the cause? As in whether it was intentional? I think I remember reading about that woman who aborted a healthy baby at 30+ weeks. I don't think late term abortion should be allowed unless there's something wrong with the baby.