Scotland - New prison rules on housing trans inmates

Totally agree: it reminds me of the EHCR statement the other day. All discussions on 'trans' issues are always far more focused on males, talking about males, stroking male egos and reassuring frantically about how males are Very Important and Very Cared About and then kind of apologetically sliding in a bit of human rights for women... it just screams over and over that this is just sheer male supremacism. The fixed belief that men are more valuable and important than women. Which makes bullshit any pretense of believing that men who identify as women ever become anything other in reality than men who identify as women. If they actually were viewed as women no one would give a fuck how they felt or what they wanted or what language they chose or what happened to them. No fucking holy days for women dying at the rate of 3 a week while everyone prays with candles.

The fact that the English prisons now house less than 5 men in the women's estate demonstrates that barely any of the males there were fully transitioned gentle, non violent predators without convictions of extensively and serially harming others, and by others the massive majority will have been women.

The wittering we've seen to this point about 'well we can't keep the serial rapists out because it might mean saying no to some poor slightly fraudulent, fully transitioned accountant and how sad for him to be in a men's prison - better a whole lot of women hurt than one sad deserving male in a men's prison..'

Ffs, it's a damn sight sadder for the women who got raped in the name of trying to nurture this one mythical bloke's feelings, how do people actually say this stuff without realising the mad sexism they have signed up to? Enough with all this. Just enough. As evidenced over and over again, these are men we are talking about, and they are men who in massive majority are not just indifferent to women, they bloody hate them and wish to use them as they choose and are gleeful to see them excluded and harmed or worse. It's evidenced over and over again, what is NEVER evidenced is any capacity to give a fuck about anyone else, particularly women. Or to have even basic social reciprocation. I'm not indulging this any further.

Transmen are not put in male prisons because they would get their asses sued if they came to harm. So somehow the reality of the harm of sticking a female in a male prison is recognised but in the reverse situation of sticking a male in a female prison it can be ignored. Makes sense? No.

Is it possible for individual female prisoners to be risk assessed to show that they are particularly vulnerable to males in the female estate? So that particular women would be kept away from transwomen?

For the many, not the few quickly became for the males, not the females

I think it is an inablity to be accountable / laziness that leads to evil.

I remember being in a meeting some years ago (Women's Aid & Police present) where all professionals involved repeatedly stated that they 'could not discuss individual cases'. Poss correct but the broad brush policy (which was hopeless in the case of the woman being discussed) meant that, as a WPC said to me at the time, 'that woman will die & there's nothing I can do to stop it'. She did die.

So, 'individual assessment' should be better in theory, yes? But, in this case,
NO as it means that each debateable case will be effectively 'nodded through' by men who are deciding what an 'acceptable risk' to women is. Answer: NONE.

Why don't women deserve single-sex spaces, unconditionally? In this case, they are being held here against their will and are trapped in these situations. Now they are held with criminal males.

Trans men on the other hand are kept away from men's prisons.

Male feelings are centred time and time again. Scotland is backwards.

Wasn't there something at the start of all this. The tras pushing this realised if they could get tw into women's prisons everything else would fall. I think this is what's still is at the root of this. Tw can't be women, if there are places that recognise they're not women, ie reality.

Do the new rules say anything about tm?

And prison onset gender dysphoria is definitely a thing.

I agree. Women’s safety should of course be the paramount concern (and I agree the only acceptable level of avoidable risk is zero), but dignity and privacy are also extremely important.

It’s not just the risk of harm that needs to be taken into account when sentencing trans offenders. It’s the fear of the risk. Imagine you’re in prison, showering with an intact TW. They’re low-risk and they’re not going to hurt you. You’re still going to feel pretty bloody uncomfortable about seeing naked male genitals in a female space. Not to mention your loss of privacy and dignity when you’re dealing with women’s issues - periods etc - and a TW is around.

It’s utter madness to pander to trans people when it puts women’s safety, dignity and privacy in jeopardy. Women’s prison is punishment enough, without this unnecessary extra burden of fear and discomfort.

Male people’s feelings and need for acceptance must NOT put women at a disadvantage. Isn’t it better to have one sad TW, than countless sad (and potentially unsafe) women? It’s impossible to make everyone happy, so you have to choose the solution that’s best for the majority. What was it Corbyn used to say about Labour? For the many, not the few.

Now it seems this world is not for the many, it’s for the men. And women must budge up and be accommodating.

I think there does need to be an investigation into sentencing trends for the sexes. When you have women locked up for petty theft, while equivalent male offenders walk free, there is no equality. I suspect it’s because men’s prisons are so overcrowded that any low-level offending is treated more leniently.

Why won't they see/accept that the only correct way to do this is

NO MEN IN THE WOMEN'S ESTATE!!!!!!!

So sick of centering the men over the women who have to have a man in amongst them when they are completely trapped.

It's not acceptable in toilets etc where you can personally choose whether to enter or leave a space if there is a man in there, but to force women to spend their time in prison having to spend every moment worried about the man in their midst is just fucking inhumane.

I hope whoever decided that this was still acceptable in certain circumstances has no bloody clue what they are doing to the women, because if they do and still went ahead and signed off on it that is beyond evil.

It is so depressing that in this context any concern expressed for the ‘individual’ is for the trans person in question, and not the very many vulnerable female ‘individuals’ they want to be housed with/have access to.

Those stats are shocking Cauldron. Thank you for sharing the report.

I have heard anecdotally that women generally get harsher sentences than men for the same crimes, often receiving custodial sentences when a man would not. Is there any evidence to back this up? Surely judges should be monitored if this is happening in practice, as sentencing guidelines universal and not sex based. Or is it that because women’s crimes tend to be less serious they are being sentenced by magistrates?

0.00000000001% risk of harm is still unacceptable. You can do away with the risk altogether if male TW criminals are housed in the male estate, perhaps on a dedicated wing for trans and NB offenders. Why should women accept any level of risk just to make male people happy?

If they don't pose an "unacceptable" risk of harm?
Where is the boundary which makes it an acceptable risk of harm instead?

Also in the Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/05/trans-criminals-history-of-violence-sent-to-womens-prisons/

https://archive.ph/oWDl3 archive link

Thank you for starting the thread.

We know where the priorities are. Las paragraph:

Teresa Medhurst, chief executive of the prison service, said: “Every single individual in the care of SPS is treated with dignity and respect, with their rights upheld, and any risks carefully managed. Our staff have an excellent track record in working with our transgender population, and I know that will continue under this new policy.”

From Feb 2023:

LESSONS LEARNED REVIEW OF TRANSGENDER INDIVIDUAL

As outlined in the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veteran’s Statement on Sunday 29January 2023, the Scottish Prison Service (SPS) has undertaken an urgent lessons learned review in relation to the management of a transgender individual currently in the care of the SPS in the male prison estate.

The purpose of the review was to provide the Chief Executive of SPS with a report into the management and decision-making rationale underpinning the management of the individual from when they were first remanded into SPS custody from court on 24 January 2023 to their most recent Case Conference review on 31 January 2023.

The key recommendations concluded from the case review are:

 INFORMATION SHARING PRE-CUSTODY AND POST-ADMISSION: There was
limited information, beyond the nature of the immediate convictions, available
regarding details of the individual’s current and previous offending or their life pre-
custody within the community from external partners to inform the initial assessment on admission to SPS custody. Since the individual’s admission into SPS custody, therehas continued to be conflicting and limited information obtained in relation to the individual and their life previously in the community. Therefore, it is recommended that a shared justice process is explored for the admission of transgender people to Scottish prisons, setting out relevant roles and responsibilities, including communications and information sharing processes (including a shared Memorandum of Understanding) to support decision making at admission and subsequent case conferences.

 COMMUNICATION: Quicker advanced alert and communication is required from
justice partners to SPS regarding transgender prisoners. Discussions have been
initiated with SCTS, Police, COPFS and ourselves, to ensure there is a clearer
approach to the transfer of transgender individuals from court to SPS custody. There will also be discussions with GEOAmey, the escorting contractor, to ensure
communication is improved between SPS and GEOAmey in these circumstances. It is further recommended that agreed communications are reviewed on a regular basis.

 INDIVIDUALISED APPROACH TO RISK ASSESSMENT: The review has concluded
that SPS policy was followed during each decision making process and risk
assessment. It is evident that the focus throughout each stage was utilising an
individualised approach for the risk assessment and management of the individual. It is recommended that this person centred, individualised approach, which seeks to balance the rights of the individual with the risks they pose to themselves and to others continues and is encouraged.
It is clear from the review that SPS staff carefully considered how to balance the rights of the individual with the risk they posed to themselves and to others during every decision making process and risk assessment process completed. However, due to the particular circumstances and heightened risks concerning this case, it is
recommended that the wider SPS Gender Identity and Gender Reassignment (GIGR) policy review considers improvements to ‘admission’ as well as ‘placement and management’ and sets out how the SPS should consider the weight of an individual’sprevious offending history as part of the case conference process.

 ADMISSION PROCESS - SPS would propose an urgent exploration of the process of immediate admission into a prison, where an individual may be removed from
association under Rule 95 conditions, for the sole purpose of risk assessment, as a
distinct and separate position from that of general admission, and located in the men’s estate, or the women’s estate. This would offer the opportunity to strengthen the balance between assessment of risk and harm to others, and the individual’s needs, welfare, and equality.

http://www.sps.gov.uk/Corporate/Publications/Publication-8963.aspx

Link now up on SPS website.

http://www.sps.gov.uk/Corporate/News/News-9340.aspx

Agree that this is shit. Still centring male feels over women feels. Because men matter more.

It’s because only 5% of the prison estate are female. 95% of offenders are male, so that means women get locked up for petty rubbish. It’s sexist as hell.

I watched Time, series 2, and although it’s a fictional drama, it was made very clear that prison messes up women’s lives and does untold damage to their children.

What's interesting about that as well is that it suggests women are regularly sent to prison over men who commit similar crimes. Surely the very definition of sexism that they are allowed to complete their punishment in the community and women, particularly those with children or pregnant ripped from theirs.

Link to the report: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmjust/265/report.html

There’s a House of Commons committee report on women in prison. It acknowledges that women in prison are vulnerable and that a different approach is needed to deal with them. Some figures here on offending trends:

TV licence evasion was the most common offence for which women were convicted in 2019. 74% of those convicted for TV licence evasion were female and this offence accounted for 30% of all female convictions.11 The indictable offence groups with the highest proportion of women prosecuted were fraud offences (33% female) and theft offences (21% female), whilst the offence groups with the highest proportion of men prosecuted were sexual offences (98% male) and possession of weapons (93% male).

Surely, it’s morally bankrupt for women’s prisons to house any male with a female gender identity, however low-risk the individual is judged to be. Low-risk, piss off. I vote for no-risk, which means keep prisons single sex, no exceptions.

Well yes, but obviously there's no way to tell true trans or not because...
So I suppose I am just saying expect a further rise in rapid trans prisoners.

Well duh you'd think, but apparently the powers that be are unable to see it.

What they are chiefly trying to do is avoid bad headlines. Rapist in women's prison, not even my twaw friends will sanction that (although of course they are rapist gender etc, needs more robust assessment).

Connie nee Colin the fraud and theft serving felon on the other hand can be imagined as equal to women in prison (many who believe 'deserve it'. Emotional turmoil, reliving abuse and PTSD harder to imagine and so women experiencing distress about males in their single sex space will be discarded.

Policy will change again when service starts hemorrhaging female staff. This will take longer but is inevitable.