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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Froodwithatowel · 01/12/2023 12:15

diversity (genuine diversity, not performative wokeness) is crucial

I don't think that part can be said enough. It goes with the kindness that is cruel. The inclusion that excludes the many from everything so a few can have more choice. The welcoming of queerness that is rampantly homophobic. The feminism that is misogynist. And on, and on.

AppleCrispMacchiato · 01/12/2023 12:11

I'm a writer (earning a living as a writer, and trad published) and I can't tell you how often I see male writers or wannabe writers ranting that the only reason they've been rejected from every publisher is because they're a white man, or because they're privately educated, white men are soooo oppressed, and "publishers are all Woke these days, they only want to publish black trans lesbians." And that's so clearly massive bollocks when you look at what actually does get published or programmed and what sells and wins awards. Statistically, being a white man MASSIVELY increases your chances of being published. Being privately educated quadruples your chance of landing a job. I have to restrain myself from saying, "Maybe the reason your book was rejected by every publisher is just because it's shit? Maybe the reason you're so convinced of your own genius and feel entitled to a book deal is because you grew up being told you were better than everyone else?" A lot of people really resent minorities taking even 1 slice of the pie because they feel entitled to the whole pie. Don't conflate that with any issues around wokeness or gender ideology. The Times is cherry picking a tiny number of books because they want to exploit gender stuff as a way to attack diversity as a concept. The vast, vast majority of books published are not "woke".

The publishing world itself is still very very elitist and almost impossible to get into unless you're white and privately educated. And there's a lot of racism in the industry, and a lot of resentment towards anything to do with "diversity" because people want publishing to continue to be the domain of white privately educated people. They might pretend to be woke but it's all very superficial and all for show. They'll happily put up a sign saying "gender neutral toilet" but they won't hire a single black person for a senior role. In my experience of working in the literary world, the most "performatively woke" people are the ones most likely to be angry if a black writer wins a writing competition over them, and immediately turn around and say "well they only won because they're black". I honestly have lost track of how many self-declared "woke" types have told me "minorities have it easy because they can just play the minority card."

It's alarming to see the failure of books about trans issues being used to attack anything to do with "diversity." Whoever said that you can't get on in the book world unless you're "diverse", I'm sorry but that's clearly such complete nonsense. I can easily believe that someone in publishing said that, but it's obviously not true. Something like 95% of trad published books are written by white writers. I actually wrote a newspaper article a few years ago about stats around gender in publishing that I had to do a lot of research for, and the publishing industry is just dire for women in every respect. It's insanely difficult to get published as a woman unless you're writing chick lit or cosy crime, and those genres are belittled and undermined (and the reason they're undermined is because they're perceived as female). Women writers are far less likely to be nominated for awards, receive substantially less media attention, more sexist media attention, and are treated more harshly by critics.

This is why diversity (genuine diversity, not performative wokeness) is crucial and shouldn't be pooh poohed. It shouldn't be the case that being black or being a woman automatically reduces your chance of getting a job or being published.

Chersfrozenface · 01/12/2023 11:49

Newgirls · 01/12/2023 11:25

Elliot page’s book is avail in the UK and US - there are different Amazon sites. Not saying it’s any good but just pointing out that it seems to be doing ok in the UK

According to Amazon UK its ranking is 7,485 in books and 71,432 in Kindle sales.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/12/2023 11:46

Solrock · 01/12/2023 09:27

Which made me think 'Why pay someone $250,000 for a novel that you are only going to print in limited numbers in one market?'

I suspect that they realise that they have a dud even before publication. Imagine it from the viewpoint of the publisher; your writer has delivered an adequate manuscript, which, for whatever reason, lacks popular appeal. You can hardly sue them to get the advance back, and editing will only get you so far. So, you create a short initial print run, in one territory, to try and offset the inevitable loss you are going to face, based upon an estimate of how many copies you are likely to sell. If it is an unexpected success, you can always print up a few more...

Kinda. A large print run, with lots of reps getting it into shops, fairs, etc, may sell well enough whatever readers eventually think of it/whether they abandon it. Hype counts for an awful, awful lot.

But there are things to be done - the UK is tiny, for example, so you can have a 'bestseller' here that is next to meaningless compared to the huge US market.

Big showboat advances are usually the result of auctions. I think that's as much about dick-swinging and showing off as any idea that the book is going to be a seller.

Newgirls · 01/12/2023 11:25

Elliot page’s book is avail in the UK and US - there are different Amazon sites. Not saying it’s any good but just pointing out that it seems to be doing ok in the UK

HoneyButterPopcorn · 01/12/2023 10:16

Book publishing is quite wokey (well the large companies) and I don’t understand why the bean counters don’t intervene. A friend worked for one of the large ones and said it was full of crybabies. And unisex loos that the young uns squeal with delight over but the older staff avoid and go to other floors.

One grown-ass man colleague went home with stress - he had overheard her on the phone telling someone of eff off (not a colleague or client) and said he felt unsafe. She is pushing 60 and 5 foot nothing. 🙄

sounds like working in a kindergarten.

Solrock · 01/12/2023 09:27

Which made me think 'Why pay someone $250,000 for a novel that you are only going to print in limited numbers in one market?'

I suspect that they realise that they have a dud even before publication. Imagine it from the viewpoint of the publisher; your writer has delivered an adequate manuscript, which, for whatever reason, lacks popular appeal. You can hardly sue them to get the advance back, and editing will only get you so far. So, you create a short initial print run, in one territory, to try and offset the inevitable loss you are going to face, based upon an estimate of how many copies you are likely to sell. If it is an unexpected success, you can always print up a few more...

TempestTost · 30/11/2023 22:46

PriOn1 · 30/11/2023 21:28

A friend in the industry told me that it’s nearly impossible to sell books that don’t fit perfectly into one of the genre moulds and especially unlikely if you don’t tick some diversity box or other. In the meantime, “celebrity transitioners” with nothing of interest to say are having cash thrown at them. I just wish the industry would start to think about quality again and not diversity at the expense of everything else.

I just want my book published. It’s genuinely painful to have watched my agent try so hard without success.

I can understand why readers do this, tbh.

I used to read a fair bit of what might be considered literary fiction, years ago. Now, when I pick it up - usually for work - I am rarely impressed. They typically seem clever but pointless, or pretentious.

I find with good genre fiction the stories are more compelling, and the writing itself is as good or better than the literary fiction, without me being aware the whole time that this person is trying to write a Great Novel.

I don't think it's always been that way. Older literary fiction doesn't give me the same sense at all.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 30/11/2023 22:29

'while white writers must avoid writing about non-white characters or risk being accused of cultural appropriation.'

But will also be criticised for having a too-white cast of characters (see Harry Potter).

Codlingmoths · 30/11/2023 22:02

Interesting, I can see the challenges in knowing what will sell, but I cannot see who thought $3 MILLION a fair payment for Elliot pages. Has any talented but not headline actor ever written anything worth that much?
I would be very cautious about criticising the decision to hire more diversity. It’s a very fair argument that black /people of colours voices are not heard and also reasonable to assume there’s a market for them, and the way to find this talent is not only to consider more widely but also to hire some people who are in that group, and the quality and diversity of books taken on should lift. They’ve clearly had additional issues, with hiring inexperienced people and being heavily agenda driven to the point they lost track of the quality issue. Refuse to take on new white male authors is a huge mistake, I can understand limiting the number to give others a voice, but refusing?? I am a reader, imagine the masterpieces we would not have had.

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2023 21:56

Invisible Women - that was a smash hit seller

Time to Think - Shortlisted for The Baillie Gifford Prize for Non-Fiction 2023 soon to be out in paperback so must be doing reasonably well for sales. There was a story in the guardian about Waterstones 'not stocking it' - when actually it sounds like demand was higher than they'd bought
www.theguardian.com/books/2023/mar/09/waterstones-books-hannah-barnes-victoria-smith
This also affected another book.

Funny isn't it?

PriOn1 · 30/11/2023 21:28

A friend in the industry told me that it’s nearly impossible to sell books that don’t fit perfectly into one of the genre moulds and especially unlikely if you don’t tick some diversity box or other. In the meantime, “celebrity transitioners” with nothing of interest to say are having cash thrown at them. I just wish the industry would start to think about quality again and not diversity at the expense of everything else.

I just want my book published. It’s genuinely painful to have watched my agent try so hard without success.

JanesLittleGirl · 30/11/2023 21:18

My heart bleeds purple piss for the publisher.

SidewaysOtter · 30/11/2023 19:27

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 30/11/2023 19:20

Can you hold your violin a bit closer, I can’t see it.

<hands over violin and a microscope>

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/11/2023 19:24

Like this?

Woke publishers ‘paid huge sums for books that flopped’ - Times article
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 30/11/2023 19:20

SidewaysOtter · 30/11/2023 19:12

Oh dear, this is all terribly sad isn’t it?

<reaches for small violin>

Can you hold your violin a bit closer, I can’t see it.

SidewaysOtter · 30/11/2023 19:12

Oh dear, this is all terribly sad isn’t it?

<reaches for small violin>

ScholesPanda · 30/11/2023 18:32

Sorry if this details the thread a bit, but the article prompted a question from me, as there are some people who clearly have experience of publishing as an industry.
One of the books in the article sounded interesting to me, although I realise it might be niche, or even 'woke'.
I've just bought a copy, but couldn't find it on Bookshop and could only import it from Amazon US.
Which made me think 'Why pay someone $250,000 for a novel that you are only going to print in limited numbers in one market?'
Is it that they realised it wasn't selling well and stopped printing new copies?
Is it that they appreciate the kudos it brings the author, and anticipate selling more books by him in future based on the reviews of this one?
Or is it that publishing these books brings kudos to the publishing house itself, like the virtue-signalling arguement?
If you genuinely thought it would make lots of money surely you'd also print lots of copies in anticipation of the rush?

ArthurbellaScott · 30/11/2023 17:49

Gender identity must be an absolute godsend to employers who want to score well on measures of diversity and equality without actually doing the expensive and difficult work necessary to recruit and retain a truly diverse workforce.

Hm, do you think a category one can opt into with nothing more than the wave of a pronoun might be attractive to employers and privileged people?

Fenlandia · 30/11/2023 17:40

I might have expected the Pageboy book to find an audience, given it got promoted by Oprah Winfrey and heavily in the Guardian among others. But maybe people aren't queuing up in droves to read about a transman who wasn't actually that famous to start with?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/11/2023 17:38

LuckyFlickerman · 30/11/2023 14:59

I once had the misfortune to share a 5-hour-long train journey with a bunch of youngsters in the publishing industry. Each spoke with a mouthful of marbles, gossiped incessantly about their celeb clients, and one mentioned an eight-bedroomed family home with several acres of land.

I imagine it's these kind of people the article's referring to.

I don't know if this is still the case, but a few years ago it seemed to be extremely difficult to get a permanent salaried job in publishing or the media without first doing a succession of unpaid or badly-paid internships to get the essential contacts and experience. Obviously young people from wealthy backgrounds had a head start there, as did those with a family base in or very near London where they could stay for no or low rent. That was never going to result in a workforce drawn from all sectors of society and all parts of the UK, and given the correlation between income and ethnicity and income and disability it can't have done much to improve diversity in those respects either.

Gender identity must be an absolute godsend to employers who want to score well on measures of diversity and equality without actually doing the expensive and difficult work necessary to recruit and retain a truly diverse workforce.

Rightsraptor · 30/11/2023 17:19

@teawamutu - I was in a library earlier this year when M Bergdorf was supposed to be doing a talk about that book as part of a literary festival. About ten teen girls turned up (accompanied by a couple of mums), to discover that it had been moved online at very short notice.

I guess it was so because of poor ticket sales.

murasaki · 30/11/2023 17:11

@RedToothBrush , heh, I couldn't possibly comment.

ArthurbellaScott · 30/11/2023 17:03

ApocalipstickNow · 30/11/2023 16:28

“That book Grace Livery "A work of staggering penis" apparently had publishers fighting over each other to get the rights. That was a flop.”

Just me laughing childishly at that, then?

Definitely.

Not Laughing GIF by Celebrity Apprentice Australia
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