Did anyone watch Doctor Who?

They didn’t twig while meeting Yasmin in real life? Or didn’t twig watching Yasmin on Doctor Who?

There is a huge difference.

Rather empress. From experience, we have seen many males fully believing that they ‘pass’. Yet never quite understanding that even when they post, their male socialisation is glaringly obvious and we cannot even see them. It is clear some people have very limited ability to understand human reaction, or who have to hold fast to misconceptions.

Yes and to be fair probably does a lot in real life - there’ve been multiple people on here who didn’t twig. I’m thinking more of a teen who wants to transition or their parent who might think, hang on, is this the best it will be? And maybe think a bit. But I think it’s probably wishful thinking!

I’m sure Yasmin believes that Yasmin passes, though.

I wondered if Rose’s appearance might make some realise the limits of transition. I think Rose is extremely attractive, but to me doesn’t pass - jawline, hairline etc. It might make someone think, hang on if they don’t pass - transitioned young, very attractive etc, what hope is there for anyone else? But then often logical or rational thought isn’t really involved so probably not.

This male doesn’t pass as a 15 year old girl, and certainly doesn’t ‘pass’ in real life. I think if anyone believed that this actor ‘passes’ as a 15 year old girl, they are again proving they have fuck all knowledge of 15 year old girls.

I think anyone who also thinks this actor ‘passes’ has also misunderstood people’s reactions in real life. maybe they have taken people’s lack of overt rejection as people not understanding that a trans person is in front of them.

I regularly passed at age 15 before even touching hormone therapy. A few months on estrogen and I was already invisible. Genetics has a large part to play, but this scenario isn't implausible at all.

I can't get upset about actors in their 20s, (or older!) playing younger teens, it's just so common. Grease, 90210, Buffy, there have to be hundred's of examples.

He’s identifying as a 14 year old, ergo he is. New times, be kind, blah blah

I finally sat to watch it. A 14 year old? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Just watched episode 1 and mostly quite enjoyed it. I knew ahead of time that the actor was male so I can't commment on their appearence but I found the actor's voice unusually convincing as female. Even with voice therapy and practice it's rare to get a convicingly female voice from after someone's voice has broken.

And I think being battered over the head with the words "gorgeous" and "beautiful" and "daughter" in relation to Donna's child spoke volumes.

Banging on about "beautiful" and "daughter" - well it's what people do when they're trying to convince themselves. (It's also a huge feature in transition medicine. Form over function. But probably less relevant here.)

I thought the scene where Donna's Mum asks whether she should be referring to Rose in terms of her looks when she didn't when Rose was Jason really interesting.

Yes it was interesting. Granny seemed to ask interesting questions and I was saddened to see her shut down. Granny seemed to be quite an independent thinker and willing to protect her daughter and grandchild. Her collapse after using the wrong word got to me. I would have expected granny to be less unquestioningly compliant about the "daughter".

I am skeptical that the New Romantics et al could ever really morph into a mainstream thing.

I think the whole point of it was pushing boundaries and subverting norms around sex and presentation.The reasons had to do a little with sex itself, and the increasing sexual freedoms of the time, but it was also to a large degree about experiment, surprise, and artistic creativity.

If it became a social norm, it would no longer fulfill those functions.

The other thing that strikes me is that I suspect we have gone past the era where we can see the rejection of sexual boundaries as basically a good thing. It's become clear that a lot of those kinds of boundaries are actually protective, and aren't about some kind of externally imposed, largely arbitrary, psychological suppressive state.

I dunno. I was a teenager in the 80s and knew guys in the local band scene and followers. Which at the time had its faction of make up and high heeled boot boys.

Did they get shit for it? Some did. All the rockers/glammies/punks/metallers did to some extent, from the dressers (casuals).

And we are not a cosmopolitan vibrant cool place even now. We’re a fairly done in shithole that the closing of the pits gutted.

They weren't full on Boy George but could give Motley Crue a run for their money.

@FlirtsWithRhinos it is wonderful reading your posts. I agree with every word.

Didn't you get the memo - we're supposed to be 25-35, white, blonde, middleclass, all rosy cheeked, big eyed and smiling as we sooooo bravely take our places on the periphery, rather than being the main character with actual power?

Personally, I'd switch universes and go for a mobility device more like ED-209 in Robocop, just with better stabilisation. Far more useful than a poxy rocket launcher gag that was done in James Bond years ago.

Worth saying that in the 80s (I was there), being a gender bending eyeliner toting man might have been ok on Top of the Pops but it really wasn't ok out and about in everyday life. Men in makeup were fair targets for men who wanted to prove something to themselves or the rest of the world - targets for slurs and for fists. I won't use the slurs here but anyone my age can fill in the blanks.

What I'm talkign about in the 80s was the early shoots of something that still hasn't really borne fruit IMO - not least because the energy and desire for tolerance has been twisted into supporting the fundamentally regressive concept of (trans) gender identity)

Gender is essentially a load of sexist crap & the world would be a better place without it.

Annie Lennox was sexy as hell in a tuxedo and back then, nobody was stupid enough to say that if she was wearing that outfit she must be a man.

Yes pretty much (without the wider sexism of that time obvs). I think there was a social trend towards acceptance and even celebration of gender non-conformism that used to be about challenging the whole concept of gender but has been sidetracked into trans genderism, mostly because the people who have been diverted haven't realised yet what they are doing is actually enforcing gender stereotypes not demolishing them.

I remain optimistic this period will come to be seen as a blip in the overall progress towards a genuinely fluid and gender-free world, where the reality of our sex is understood, the social consequences that creates for women are addressed, and everyone is free to wear glitter and a fabulous frock, brylcream and a tux, or all of that together to the office Christmas party.

So
... like the '80s then?
From Glam Rock to New Romantics THOSE men did exactly what you're describing. And were sex gods to many a teenage girl 😂

It's not new at all.

SPOILERS (just in case someone hasn't watched ep2 yet)

After the brilliant "posing as vulnerable but actually here for domination" trope of the first episode, we now have "scary monsters who want to take the place of Dr/Donna to gain access to the universe of form and so copy them in inept and grotesque fashion".
Ummmm, thanks Doctor Who, points well made.

Wise words, @FlirtsWithRhinos.

I'm not on board with criticising women's appearance so I'm not on board for criticising a man for not looking pretty enough to be a pretty woman.

I thought Yasmin Finney looked good. Not like a pretty teenage girl but good in YF's own right.

I would love to see our culture develop an aesthic / style tribe for male people who want to wear styles traditionally coded female. I don't think that this does, or should in anyway be seen as, making them actually female.

I think a man saying "I want these lovely, pretty things to be open to men as well as women and BTW, I wear them well!" has a totally valid point. I think a man saying "I want to wear these things because they are something coded for women, and I want to wear women's things" is coming from a different place, one that's bad for women even if the man himself is not consciously motivated by misogynist or fetishistic ideas.

So for me, YF gets 8/10 on the look, 0/10 on the bigger picture.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius exactly. I used to be part of a beauty/fashion group on fb, which was supportive and helpful, then it got infiltrated by males in womanface pouting and preening while wearing 'sexy' underwear and revealing clothing who were then ridiculously fawned over by the hand maidens.
"Gawjuss hun'!!

Thought the second episode was much better.

Was discussing with teenage daughter (regularly rolls her eyes at me over trans issues) and she commented on the clunky writing in the pronoun scene as well and how people would be more likely (when discussing another species) to ask 'why are you assuming male' than 'why are you assuming pronouns?' Also she thought that Rose's personality trait was just 'trans' so again lazy clunky writing.