Did anyone watch Doctor Who?

You are 'disqualified' from womanhood because you are MALE. It is completely irrelevant to how you look.

Shut up and look pretty? Fucking spare us! You are male. If you look pretty, great! Good for you. But do not fucking attempt to claim that line of oppression that so many of us have experienced all through our lives as female people, ie. women and girls, for yourself.

How fucking offensive and tone deaf do you have to be to make such a comment on a feminist chat board?

Misogyny really has no boundaries and male people really cannot see their own actions with a framing in reality.

women are constantly attacked over our appearance as if it is the only meaningful attribute worthy of consideration, and accused of vanity if we engage with it in any way

That’s part and parcel of being a woman in our society. Why should TW be treated differently?

Maybe that's something to do with the way trans women are constantly attacked over our appearance as if it is the only meaningful attribute worthy of consideration, and accused of vanity if we engage with it in any way?

Well, it would help if your activists didn't keep telling women that we can't police our boundaries because we can't tell what sex trans people are. The obvious riposte is "oh yes we can". Certainly we can and do tell enough of the time to contribute greatly to our own safety, privacy and dignity.

And it would also help a great deal if gender affirmation doctors didn't prioritise appearence so totally over physical function or sensation. But since appearence is all they have to offer I suppose it's inevitable.

Maybe that's something to do with the way trans women are constantly attacked over our appearance as if it is the only meaningful attribute worthy of consideration, and accused of vanity if we engage with it in any way? Disqualified by default from womanhood if you don't pass; disqualified for daring to talk about it otherwise. What are your options? Shut up and look pretty? No thanks. I walked that road for years but now I am older, grumpier, and very, very tired.

I'll stop talking about it when there is no need to talk about it; when it is no longer weaponised against us.

Trans people are well aware of the reality of expected outcomes

Some are. Some, not so much. Still others, not at all.

people transition even when they know they won't pass afterwards and that isn't even on their radar as an option.

That too. But the realists (and I do know some) are a declining minority among a swathe of deluded and self-deluded young people who can't even be told the reality because it's "transphobic" to warn anyone they don't pass or that they wont pass.

And what does passing even mean? For every occurrence when people believe you are the sex you say you are, there is either the reality or the potential for other occasions when people wont. Passing can never be guaranteed to anyone. Not outside of science fiction.

I don't think it is creating unrealistic expectations about transition outcomes

I agree. Dr Who is as fantastical as fantasy gets. I didn't even suppose that Rose was meant to be just a "trans character" rather than some kind of sci-fi hermaphrodite brought to life by the BBC costumes make-up and camera angles.

The passing element seems very important to many trans identifying people (mainly males it seems, or perhaps as with everything they’re just more vocal).

Trans people are well aware of the reality of expected outcomes and have been for a very, very long time. We can't not be - it's one of the first sticks used to try and beat desistence into us. It clearly doesn't work, because people transition even when they know they won't pass afterwards and that isn't even on their radar as an option.

Occasionally someone gets lucky and life can be much easier for them if they want it to be. This actually happens to real people - and as I'm one of them and have lived decades of that life, I am compelled to spend my time online dispelling the mythology that surrounds the subject.

The chance is generally higher the earlier you start, but at the point where you are getting treatment after negotiating a waiting list for multiple years, you are already very bored of people smugly saying 'you won't pass' and then framing it as concern.

It's nice to see a trans actor playing a trans character on tv who is allowed to be happy and loved. I've never been much of a Who fan and this episode was particularly high on the cheese/anvil scale in a way that isn't to my taste but that's just what it is and has always been as a production.

I don't think it is creating unrealistic expectations about transition outcomes - well, other than the fantasy of still having a supportive family afterward which sadly is still a fantasy for many.

No. The issue is that people either affirmed that this person was a 15 year girl OR they were shown to be bullies or were re-educated.

That is real issue here.

It is not really about whether they pass or not pass. And the posts from posters stating that it is possible that a male 'could' pass at 15 are also not relevant.

The very real issue is the storyline around this character.

The walking and running gives it away if the face doesn't. Males and females have different hips you can tell from a mile off if someone is male or female

Actually you're right! We are watching an adult male who thinks he's a woman playing a boy who thinks he's really a girl.

If the actor wasn’t a trans identifying male I would agree with that - but as many people watching know he’s someone who already identifies as female and uses female pronouns we’re not supposed to be watching a male actor playing a 15 year old boy who wants to be a girl.

The whole thing is cuckoo.

Even the first Eurovision picture looks odd, like he's been photos hopped in or there's some weird Lord of the Rings stylie forced perspective.

Oddly, it reminded me of Tom Cruise's ex wives and girlfriends proclaiming, once the relationship was over, that they can now wear heels. Something tall women (or women with tiny boyfriends or husbands) often do but with tw not so much. Perhaps because, to them, high heels = women and so help with the fetish dysphoria.

I've not seen the DW episode barring the intro. Iirc the first shot of Rose was a very cheesecakey one, glancing around and smiling. Reminded me of the intros to those American sitcoms in the 70s. Each regular character would be introduced like that one after the other. The blokes would generally stare directly into the camera, the women would be glancing around and smiling.

Excellent point. Of course, should have thought of that. Rose is still male and passing isn’t the point of the character.

I have wound my neck in.

Still haven’t seen more than the first 10 minutes, I got interrupted so often I gave up.

The Eurovision pictures. Promo v Reality

In my opinion it's not relevant what the character looks like (and I personally am not comfortable discussing it, to any further extent than I would discuss any other character's appearance, because people can't help what they look like).

That episode was a clunky, hectoring, lecturing lump of Right Side of History caricatured cartoonish Goodies vs Baddies because that's what it was. Could have been rendered entirely using claymation or sock puppets or carved turnips, and the point would still stand.

It's much easier to pass on tv/film/in professional photos as every thing (make up, wardrobe, lighting, positioning of other people) will be used to make it as convincing as possible. Another example being the transwoman presenter on Eurovision a few years ago - many of the promo shots of the presenting team had the transwoman sitting down to disguise height, but once on screen standing next to the female presenters it was blatantly obvious as he towered over them.

Yasmin may have passed relatively convincingly in DW and other shows, but the photos I have seen of Yasmin in real life (ie not magazine photoshoots) show that the reality is far more obvious.

You are correct there.

Is Ross then being treated as a girl, except for the grandmother character?

Because if so, that immediate acceptance as being something that they are not is a major issue.

Rose doesn't need to pass though. Remember - we are watching an adult male actor playing a 15 year old boy who wants to be a 15 year old girl. The audience is meant to know Rose is trans (not a biological girl).

I didn’t know until I read this. I just thought the actor looked older than 15

The brow, and jaw bones are noticeable. But I think it will also depend on the carefully curated hair positioning and where your focus is. If rose was not an important character to you, personally, I can imagine maybe not picking it up during the show.

How?!

Well indeed especially when the 'girl' is a bloody great lump of an obvious man! So it's preaching 'Don't believe the evidence of your own eyes!'

Did you not notice the jawline, the forehead, the body shape?!