Did anyone watch Doctor Who?

Nope.

I don't think you quite have grasped it.

Prion is referring to a time when trauma during childhood was considered to be a major cause of GID. She also refers to homophobic trauma, in her second paragraph onwards.

She is talking about social contagion being a recent motivation in the 'current wave'.

What do you believe she means again?

The only way GC feminists ever get to shut people down is by having unanswerable arguments.

Do doctors prioritise appearance over function and sensation? Mine didn't. Never had any comments from partners!

Well that's nice for you but "my partners don't comment" is well below the standard I would accept for sexual, genital or reproductive function or sensitivity. But I'll drop that line of argument as I really don't want to go into details.

Shouldn't that decision ultimately be up to the individual to make best of the hand they are dealt in a way that works for them, anyway?

Up to a point. So: not if it works for them at the expense of other people's right to live happy peaceful lives. This doesn't really apply to medicine but it does apply to allowing male people access to spaces which women need to keep free of male people for the sake of their own safety, privacy and dignity.

And on the medical side, not if it can't be predicted who it will work well enough for and who it wont, especially not if the risk of it not working is very high while the consequences of it not working are severe,. Due to the "first do no harm" obligation on doctors. A lot of medical treatments that people have high hopes of aren't offered because they're just not good enough. You may exist and you really may be very happy but you are anecdote, not data.

Pr10n is claiming that 'the current wave of social contagion' changed something that was 'commonly accepted' (it wasn't) decades before it is supposed to have even manifested.

I don't remember encountering any time travelling social contagion vectors in my childhood.

Oh yay! I can feel some evidence coming though! That is a start.

Come on ButterflyHatched , give us the links that show that 'social contagion' has been in effect for at least a decade and half prior to when it has been manifested? Or have I misread what has been in effect for a decade and a half ?

"a supposed wave of 'Social Contagion' that was somehow already in effect at least a decade and a half prior to the time it is supposed to have manifested. Try again!"

Maybe I jumped to conclusions based on your previous denials of the situations facing young female adolescent transitioners. In which case, I apologise. If not, please link up that evidence. You know we love to read it all!

"Sorry for giving a damn about a political movement that has steadily shifted from merely obstructing further positive change into actively trying to stop me from living the life I've lived for decades while claiming I don't exist."

You mean what? Stopping you actively stating you are a 'woman' and living the life of a 'woman'?

Nah mate. You are a version of 'woman' that you have constructed in your head, that is all that you can be living. No one is denying that you are living the life of a male who is gender non-conforming. But we ARE denying that you are living any version of a life of a female person. Because you are not and you must understand by now that you never can.

Why should any person in the world affirm your version of what you have told us is womanhood that you have been 'disqualified' from being? That is a very bizarre demand when you look at it. No one should be put in a position of affirming your misogynistic view point of what a woman is. No one should have to accept you living the life you demand that puts women and girls health and safety at risk.

You exist. The hyperbole that you have posted today though is great. Please do keep posting as it really is a live demonstration of the tactics and the emotional manipulation of extreme trans activists. Particularly when women say no, and declare their boundaries clearly to exclude male people who insist that they are women.

There's no reframing - we can tell. It's as simple as that.

I haven't noticed the TRAs shutting down because it's highlighted that males still look like males, regardless of what they wear or how much make up they put on, or how long they grow their hair. Did I miss something?

'Widely accepted' by whom? Certainly wasn't widely accepted as the cause by Wren and the others at the Tavi in the late 90's and early 00's. I'd like to think I have at least a small insight on this subject, given I spent years talking to them in great detail about it at the time as one of their patients. It was investigated but very quickly discounted on account of being complete bullshit and obviously not applicable.

You're talking about a position that wasn't in fact commonly accepted which changed during a supposed wave of 'Social Contagion' that was somehow already in effect at least a decade and a half prior to the time it is supposed to have manifested. Try again!

I understand the appeal of shutting down the TRA's with the whole 'we can always tell' refrain. Reframes the whole thing so that you can then crush or No True Scotsman anyone who challenges it - and never actually engage with the complexities.

Unfortunately, being one of those annoying little axiom-defying complexities is a reality I have to live with daily. Sorry for giving a damn about a political movement that has steadily shifted from merely obstructing further positive change into actively trying to stop me from living the life I've lived for decades while claiming I don't exist.

Do doctors prioritise appearance over function and sensation? Mine didn't. Never had any comments from partners!

Shouldn't that decision ultimately be up to the individual to make best of the hand they are dealt in a way that works for them, anyway?

Yes.

It is a very common comorbidity. But again, it would take self awareness to recognise it.

I don't think it is creating unrealistic expectations about transition outcomes - well, other than the fantasy of still having a supportive family afterward which sadly is still a fantasy for many

I mean, families should be supportive. However, there is such thing as a fantasy of rewriting a family's history that no family should be forced to accept. And yet, that rejection of having the family history rewritten is considered abusive. It is really a bizarre time in the world.

I don't think it is creating unrealistic expectations about transition outcomes - well, other than the fantasy of still having a supportive family afterward which sadly is still a fantasy for many

Before the current wave of fact erasure around the causes of gender identity disorder, it was widely accepted that GID was caused by abusive behaviour (often parental) during the formative stages of childhood.

That was, of course, back before the current wave of social contagion, when the majority of transitioners were feminine gay boys with homophobic parents.

The parental dysfunction probably predates the GID and is likely the cause of the rift, rather than transitioning being the trigger.

Of course now there are homophobic parents cheering on their children in their transition as it’s less shameful to have a transitioning child than a homosexual one. It’s incredibly sad all round.

It never seems to compute does it?

The listing of the visual cues that come from being 'male' are now 'superficial commentary on how one looks'? Missing the entire purpose that those visual cues immediately alert someone to exactly why a person entering into a single sex space should not be there.

Can the claim for victimhood, and the twisting needed to do so, be any clearer for those reading along?

I don't consider it vanity. I believe it is something else that has vanity as just one of its indicators.

neighbourhoods analogy is spot on though. That 'horse' simply cannot be entered into the Grand National. But I am sure that 'horse' would tell us, if it could, that any discussion as to the visual cues as to why it could not be entered into the Grand National is worthy of some sort of sympathy. But then again, no cats can type and I doubt that cat lacks the self awareness to think it should even be in the Grand National. Unless it was the Grand National for Cheetahs....

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision

A superficial set of visual standards prevent me from entering this stunning, record-beating racehorse in the Grand National.

Superficial is the operative word here.

a superficial set of visual standards

😂

You should take up comedy.

Blimey. Talk about a self awareness fail and blatant hypocrisy!

And I am not talking about Str8talking's post.

You realise you actually wrote this in direct response to a comment lamenting that trans women are constantly told they don't live up to a superficial set of visual standards and in the rare number of cases where they point out that they actually do, they are then accused of vanity?

I'm not interested in going round in circles so let's just assume I spent a page demonstrating how none of that applies in this case and you then switched to implying that I'm vain and appearance-fixated or only transitioned for fetishistic reasons or words to that effect. It'll save us both a lot of time and tedium.

Wow! I had not seen that!

Mind you, I have come across a couple of extreme activist posters this year who have attempted to shame anyone questioning the brutality of transition on a female body. They dismiss it constantly with a breezy, it is 'life saving' surgery / hormonal changes and literally dismiss the life limiting, and life damaging aspects of it to attempt to frame it as positive and consensual treatments. They even deny the life limiting aspects of double mastectomies, apparently these are wonderful gender affirming surgeries and not brutal at all.

It does seem to be a feature and not a bug that it is female people and their lives that seem so easy to dismiss here. The direct and indirect negative discrimination never seems to occur to some extreme activist posters. Ever.

In the very first of Jodie’s episodes, I thought she was fun, zany and assertive. I was delighted as I really thought it was going to work, having been wary of Jodie as I thought she might be a bit bland.

Then it turned out that the fun, zany and assertive parts of her character were merely a sign she wasn’t herself yet after regenerating.

I know each doctor has their own character, but the crime, for me, was that Chibnell made her kind, empathetic and thick, which perhaps reflects his general view of what women are like. I really wished he’d written the part for a male doctor, then given it to Jodie Whittaker to make of it what she could.

All the overt lecturing (in place of interesting storylines) finished it off completely, but it was the writing that let it down, I suspect, rather than Jodie’s acting.

I am older, grumpier, and very, very tired.

Gosh. So am I. One of the things that makes me grumpy is trans activists on mumsnet dismissing the death of an 18 year old, who died from the complications of an attempted vaginoplasty.

Oh wait. That was you.

Go.away.

"I am also older, grumpier, and very very tired of men pushing their way into women's spaces"

Absolutely. It is remarkable that time and time again, some people continue to display that some male people will always lack any respect at all for female people's needs. That they will always prioritise their own needs and enter single sex spaces knowing that their very presence will likely cause those female people using that space distress. Even if they didn't know at the time, the damage can still be done discovering that they were in the presence of a person who was male who they would not have consented to be in the presence of if they had known.

I get it though. Imagine understanding that you have transgressed so many women and children's boundaries with your actions. It must be rather hard for any person with any semblance of self awareness to take in after years of prioritising oneself. But for that have any impact, the person would have to have a base level of self awareness.

Exactly what @Str8talkin said.

I am also older, grumpier, and very very tired of men pushing their way into women's spaces - I have many decades of it and this latest version of male entitlement is one that I refuse to bow down to. There will be weaponising until men get the hell out of women's spaces and stop seeing womanhood as something they can opt into. Trans identifying men haven't got a clue what it means to be a woman.