Sandi Toksvig "doesn't get it", poor love....

This whole line of argument from GC people is particularly problematic.

The 'gotcha' is always 'oh you think trans women are women? would you have sex with them?! would you?!'

It's deeply misogynistic in its underlying premise that the test of womanhood is whether people who are ordinarily attracted to women will have sex with you or not.

And deeply homophobic in immediately running towards sex lives whenever lesbians have a view on trans people that doesn't accord with their own.

So, no evidence then?

Well, we all know you are living the evidence free life Mishy so no surprise there.

So, did I notice that being called a bigot now is being dismissed as a very mild insult compared to expressing disappointment in someone who has positioned themselves to be of political influence with their very own political party and querying that person’s intelligence and motivation?

Well, there you go. I guess that would be about right because some posters do quickly resort to making abusive accusations and then declaring victimhood. There does seem to be a pattern I have noticed over the years. Those few people who downplay calling people bigots, transphobes, racists, child abusers and a slew of other serious insults never recognise the lack of symmetry of their own behaviour when they then claim to be bullied and claim victimhood for people merely pointing out inconsistencies and flaws in their arguments.

At least it is then consistent to dismiss bigotry as being less of an insult to women saying questioning motives and the lack of thought behind a political leader’s statements.

I believe it is consistent too with a few posters who dismiss violence against women when it is violence against women who they don’t agree with. through various means, but one in particular comes to mind, such as telling us we are racist because we are discussing a small women’s group being attacked instead of say, a woman of colour being murdered. That is amongst other accusations that I am sure I am not the only person on FWR to remember. It is consistent behaviour at least.

No, you didn't mention breastfeeding.

That is, indeed, my point.

The thread has discussed her attitude to breastfeeding and you have popped up to tell us that in your opinion she is "[a] true feminist and radical". Therefore you do not see her breastfeeding comments as important.

How welcome are transmen in the gay clubs of Soho?

With trans-activism in general, if someone is irrationally sticking to a position, demonising others that disagree, and promoting something that is arguably harmful in various ways, that is a good case for someone being a "bigot".

The trans debate is different because (1) people are making radical new identity claims, and (2) they are trying to claim "rights" on a radical new basis.

Even if you can make some sort of parallel, there are going to be ways that it is way different to the debates over homosexuality.

I think you have already said that it may be fair, in theory, to call Sandy a bigot, but you disagree that this is actually the case.

I would say that there is a strong case that trans-activists are bigots on the grounds of them being irrational, having closed minds, being intolerant of others, and demonising the opposition. Hopefully Sandy doesn't fall into that.

Yes, Yes it is the same thing. Some people are just too blinkered to see it. Sandi is an absolute legend. A true feminist and radical. I've admired her for years and continue to do so.

Nope. There is nothing remotely feminist or radical about Sandi or any woman who prioritises males over females, excludes females from services and spaces that should include them.

Lols. No-one forces people on who they choose to have sex with

What?

I never mentioned breast feeding. Dont put words into my mouth to try and sideline my points. Attempt level -1. ;)

Lols. No-one forces people on who they choose to have sex with. Much of the younger generation are very fluid in sexuality. But it is the individual's choice. This whole garbage that lesbians will be forced to sleep with a penis. Complete and utter rubbish.

Most of my girlfriends are attracted to the female form. Some would date a trans woman some would not. It's completely their choice and doesn't invalidate their identities. Makes me laugh.

Go to a club like She in Soho. You will find a very proud, no T*RFs served here sign. And there are older and younger lesbians alike - and even the odd transwoman when you can identify them, or they may just be fluid. You know what? I don't really care. I just love people enjoying themselves without fear and bigotry. Yay.

How utterly unsurprising that you should not care about her attitude to breastfeeding mothers, Mishy.

It aligns with the pattern that some trans-identifying males may identify as women, but they never identify with women.

For the scolders on this thread, women are allowed to be angry and disappointed by Sandi’s comments. Sandi’s comments add fuel to the fire. They validate the TRA position that gender-critical women, who have valid concerns over the erosion of their rights, are somehow hateful bigots.

Every time the GC position is criticised by a respected celebrity, the world becomes a little bit less safe for women and their rights. With her “kind” words of solidarity, Sandi is unwittingly helping to empower men who think it’s ok to scream at and threaten women for daring to want to preserve female single-sex spaces and sports.

Granted, there are horrible far-right bigots out there who are no doubt anti-trans and probably anti everything else too. Those far-right bigots should not be confused with GC feminists, many of whom are left-leaning. JK Rowling supported the Labour Party during Gordon Brown’s leadership.

Yes, Yes it is the same thing. Some people are just too blinkered to see it. Sandi is an absolute legend. A true feminist and radical. I've admired her for years and continue to do so.

I too am very interested in seeing the evidence that supports this rather wild claim.

What independent polling was done? Who reported it? Where can we see the data?

Or is it just some poster making generalisations based on nothing? I am looking forward to seeing this evidence though. That would be very enlightening.

Sandi Toksvig will run into instant trouble if she ever has to answer even one question about her sexual orientation. Or defend it in any way.

Does she agree with stonewall that lesbians are sexual racists?

I'd have to assume, no. No normal person does.

So why the devil is she wading into it? One can only assume that she doesn't have a clue about transactivism.

And if she's a guardian reader, none of them do!

I don't think she realises that the water she's about to dip her toe in, is full of sharks

And I predict that she's about to get a massive shock.

If the TRAs were just calmly (like the people on this thread) disagreeing with people and saying they thought their opinions were wrong, things would not be in the mess that they are. In reality they are physically attacking people, sending violent, explicit threats and using their male privilege to deny access to public spaces. So no, not at all in the same vein.

Lots of people have different views on marriage, regardless of the sexuality of those getting married, including lesbians and gay men.

To say it's a 'bigoted' belief is inaccurate and over simplistic.

Ah, I see. I had thought it was a wing of Stonewall.

Appears not, my mistake.

'Is Stonewall Housing affiliated with “Stonewall”, the LGBTQ+ rights charity?
We’re proud to share a similar name, but we’re not part of Stonewall – we’re totally separate organisations.

https://stonewallhousing.org/faqs/

What's your issue with Stonewall Housing?

They’re not identical arguments at all tho. All LGB people wanted were the same rights as everyone else. TRA want the same rights as everyone (which they already have) plus the rights of the sex they identify into & that everyone else play along that they’ve changed sex as well - and if they don’t the law should compel them too

not remotely the same

Of course you can. Sandi Toksvig has been called much worse on this thread than a bigot by the way - all in the same of checks notes - standing up for women.

Which women?

The ones detailed in the posts by YouJustDoYou and FinallyFinalGirl?

The ones detailed in posts by Froodwithatowel?

You are like every other craven 'ally' happy to exclude, demean, dehumanise and ride roughshod all over vulnerable, traumatised women as well as women and girls who just don't want to share spaces with males because, like Sandi you believe males must have everything and woman, if they are lucky, get the scraps.

You and Sandi are the same. Not tolerant, not liberal, not inclusive.

if she, like the majority of lesbians, doesn't buy in to anti-trans thinking

Ah, you're suggesting that the majority of lesbians are glad to see men as women and have sex with them? And be told that they're sexual racists if they wish to define their dating pool as female only?

I haven't been surveyed. I don't know anyone in my lesbian groups who have been, so where's this 'majority' statistic come from? Could it possibly be from lovely TQ+ groups where all the non compliant homosexuals have been shamed into silence and ejected?

Gosh what a lovely inclusive and LGB friendly world this is :)

Well I get it. She cant risk saying anything that might threaten her lucrative broadcasting career despite the fact that she ceased to be funny and engaging years ago.

It was a small reference in an interview, not a detailed opinion piece.

But of course it shouldn't be surprising that people who have experienced prejudice because of being gay would understand and empathise with trans people experiencing the same with almost identical arguments being used.

Though not sure what any of that has to do with her use of the word bigot which was, in my view entirely accurately, used to describe the anti-gay views of the COE.

A number of homosexuals don't think it's that straight forward, me included. But we shut up about it as straight people are busy virtue signalling they're good people using it.

Righthink stamps out nuance and the actual voices and diversity of the people involved.