Sandi Toksvig "doesn't get it", poor love....

Did you read the article under discussion? She has discussed these issues, at length.

Not that I think gay people have any obligation to discuss bigotted views about them or their relationships before they can call them bigoted.

If this has already been posted, I apologise. If not...enjoy! Sandi has roused the Bindel

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/who-is-sandi-toksvig-to-lecture-radical-feminists/

https://archive.ph/TLcNZ archive link

Incidentally, the bit about unpalatable lesbians being excluded in the 70s by feminists. Does anyone know what she's talking about?

Given that bigot is a personal attack would it be okay instead to say that Sandi Toksvig holds bigoted views? Would it also be okay to point out that she has the privilege of not being damaged by occasionally being called bigoted or, indeed, a bigot? Is it okay to be disappointed and maybe a bit bloody cross that she can use her public platform to put forth these views without taking into account the complexities of the GI "movement" and how it impacts women, especially marginalised and more vulnerable women? Might we wonder if there will be a whole generation where there are no butch lesbians because they will have been convinced that they are, in fact, men?

Might we move on from the notion that women must always be kind both to each other and to those who seek to denigrate them just in case we are seen to be so very wrong in not being kind? Should we consider that even the kindest of GC women have been called Nazis and fascists and have had violence wished upon them, used upon them and lost their livings because they may have been kind but they have thought very, very wrong things? Further, and maybe finally, could we not understand that to have issues with the TRA movement, which very much seems to be the MRA movement in a frock, is not to be "anti-trans" but is to accept that there is a conflict of rights whether those who poo-poo this are prepared to accept it or not?

I'm about to undergo some rather serious treatment, part of which will take place in, what I see - disagree or not - a totally captured NHS trust hospital. The treatment is not something that makes me fear a MTF nurse but what is playing on my mind is that I will have to be aware of what I say or do the whole time this is going on. Of course, I'm not going to go around saying "Trans women are men!". I'm not a total twat - only partial - but I absolutely hate that I'm even thinking about this at all when it should have absolutely sweet FA to do with an NHS Trust which should just be about the health of the individual and have nothing to do with ideologies that are not scientifically robust. Other than that I am in the lucky position of being a woman who will probably never be in a position where I am in a vulnerable position and forced to share space with a MTF trans person. I won't be in prison and have to share a cell or a unit with a rapist who now decides that he is a woman. I almost certainly won't be using a rape crisis centre where there are men, not because I won't be raped - already happened - but because I have enough support that I would be able to make the decision not to use such a place. I'm lucky, most of us here are and I think it is therefore even more important for us to consider the needs of women who have no voice and are not so lucky.

Re lesbians. I have a lot of lesbian friends none of whom want anything to do with "lady cock", but I don't pretend to believe that therefore no lesbians are, I think that all of the fluid and "I don't care a damn!" among you might consider that your experiences are far from universal as well. You're in a majority in your bubble and nowhere else.

I'm GC and I've never made that argument, btw - I agree it's not relevant to what the definition of man or woman is.

Do the posters defending calling some people ‘bigots’ not recognise the difference between criticising the belief or argument and criticising the person.

As soon as you’ve started talking about bigots, you’re in personal attacking, villainising, name calling territory. You are calling people bigots. It’s playing the man not the ball.

It’s really weird to be defending someone (you agree with)’s right to call people names while complaining that the people you don’t agree with were rude about that person and called them names.

If Sandi wants to call bishops bigots in the international media, she’s opening up the whole discussion to proceed via name
calling.

Maybe she should have discussed the ideas rather than going straight for the nasty bigots attack.

It’s also incredible to pretend that in 2023 ‘bigot’ is high up there in the list of moral
crimes and terrible things you can call someone. Calling someone a bigot is intended to be a far worse insult than calling them a posh twat or whatever.

Yes, it would be better if we all just criticised Sandi’s behaviour and ideas rather than called her a twat or whatever. But it’s utterly disingenuous to pretend that calling someone a ‘bigot’ is a neutral or objective statement.

@Flickersy
Don't be disingenuous
It's completely hypocritical to say shaming other women is unfeminist on a thread which is loaded with insults towards a woman because she has the "wrong" opinion
Pointing that out is not scolding or shaming. Or is it ok to shame and insult women when they have the wrong thoughts?

Exactly

'she describes how her friend the comedian Sandi Toksvig made a mischievous habit of saying things others would consider shockingly inappropriate, and then adding brightly: “Too soon, darling?”''

Oh god, what an arsehole

'I have never understood why Sandi Toksvig (or Stephen Fry, for that matter) is held up as some sort of great intellect.'

I know, it's baffling. It can only be because they have bags of confidence and sound very posh. Was it Julie Burchill who described Fry as 'a stupid person's idea of what a clever person would be like?'

Been through this again and again with those two posters, you'll never get them to shift from their alternative reality where it's all lovely, and homosexual females can be homosexual and meet and date in peace and joy supported by the TQ+ lobby, except that none of them exist because all homosexual females love doing men.

Toksvig has a similar personal reality. It's all lovely in there and she cannot see nor hear any evidence or accounts or voices that does not fit with it. Which in my opinion makes her as culpable as those who deny the reality of homosexual oppression while doing it. Obviously. All over threads. Constantly.

I have never understood why Sandi Toksvig (or Stephen Fry, for that matter) is held up as some sort of great intellect.

It can also come down to definitions - in this case, what marriage means. Much more clearly, when it comes to trans issues, what do ‘woman’, ‘man’, ‘male’, ‘female’, ‘lesbian’ mean. Our society at a legal level has come down on ‘marriage’ being inclusive of gay couples. I think it’s debatable whether it’s bigoted to still use an earlier accepted definition, and not to go along like a sheep with the majority opinion, but you are obviously wedded to your worldview and anyone wedded to a different worldview from yours is by definition bigoted - is that right?

The trans redefinitions of sex-based words to gender-based words are a problem because gender does not lend itself to clear legal definitions which can be repeatedly determined or verified by scientific tests. So, on a gender-based definition, how can you determine who is and isn’t a lesbian? How can you determine who is a woman eligible to compete in female sports categories? Unfortunately the CofE is very confused in its responses in this area too, with a strong push to base its policy on ‘kindness’ rather than verifiable fact.

A fresh snippet about Sandi T, from an article about grief in today's Guardian:

'Black humour works for some people. In the journalist Catherine Mayer’s memoir Good Grief, co-written with her mother, Anne Mayer Bird, after both women were coincidentally widowed around the same time, she describes how her friend the comedian Sandi Toksvig made a mischievous habit of saying things others would consider shockingly inappropriate, and then adding brightly: “Too soon, darling?”'

Not much reading between the lines is needed to realise that sensitivity or empathy is clearly not Ms Toksvig's strong suit.

What do you think 'bigoted' means?

I mean it's mightly good of the COE to 'accept the law' (as opposed to what? launching a theocratic coup?).

And the context you provide is all very interesting, but doesn't change the end position - that the COE as an institution does not consider gay couples to be worthy of marriage.

They are of course perfectly free to believe that. But let's not pretend that's not a bigoted view.

Presumably Mishy also missed the bit where Nancy Kelley had a go at lesbians who were only interested in other bio women.

Do they have a proud ‘no blacks, no Irish’ sign too?

By the way, Mishy. Did you miss the women who wrote posts on FWR at the time of that BBC article about lesbians and the 'cotton ceiling' telling us that yes, they actually were raped because they ended up in situations where unwanted sex happened because they were too afraid to say no. Afraid of violence at the time AND of the violence of rejecting that person in the first place.

You are very dismissive again of violence against women, this time sexual violence. How many rapes do you find acceptable before you take back your ridiculous statement of 'No-one forces people on who they choose to have sex with'?

It never is.

Helen Joyce has now shared that screenshot of Sandi saying ‘No dyke needs a penis’ and it’s spreading quite nicely so I’m sure she’ll be called to account for it at some point.

I know, I could practically hear the collective eye roll because that poster is consistently clueless. And clueless about their cluelessness.

I know the word embarrassing often gets over used, but it truly is, watching that person trying to invoke the youth, women, lesbians, the lot. When it's perfectly clear they never have any dealings with any of them.

And Porcelina, it seems that no one gets female only lesbian dating events cancelled, or protested.

If you want to criticise the CofE it might be better to understand their position(s) first. The CofE accepts the law, that gay couples can get married under the law - a civil marriage. The CofE is split on whether the marriage of a gay couple is valid as a religious ceremony, with the implication that God approves, and is trying to avoid a split over this issue. Hence the fudged position currently, permitting the blessing of a civil marriage but not permitting a marriage ceremony in church.

I would hate to have to choose between one side of such a split or the other, as I would agree with one side over some issues and with the other over some issues. It’s similar to voting, where there is no political party that I am happy with on all policy positions. Just as I am left wing in some respects, and right wing in others, I am theologically conservative in some respects and theologically liberal in others - and I sometimes switch positions when faced with evidence and arguments which I find convincing, or when I have sufficient doubt that my previous understanding was correct. So being a member of the CofE is often uncomfortable, precisely because its position is not fixed in stone. And according to some [TRAs, for example], I am bigoted, because I do not subscribe to their position but am open to persuasion!

Oh, I see. I thought Mishy was claiming rape never happened. But it wasn't very clear.

@MishyJDI

Lols. No-one forces people on who they choose to have sex with.

So no one gets banned or harassed on lesbian dating sites if they say, "biological females only"?

Maybe you should actually read the thread then. Sandi’s attitude towards breastfeeding is hardly feminist.

Not RTFT but I’m pretty sure that at least one of Sandi’s children may be having an influence here, not because they themselves are trans-identified but rather that they move in those circles.

Not the first mother of twenty-somethings to be captured in this way.