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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Museum reclassifies Roman emperor as trans woman

57 replies

HelenaRavenclaw · 21/11/2023 18:39

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67484645

How long till Boudica is classified as a trans man? (Surely a "cis" woman would never lead a rebellion?)

Elagabalus

Museum reclassifies Roman emperor as trans woman

It comes after classical texts quote the emperor saying "call me not Lord, for I am a Lady".

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67484645

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Igmum · 24/11/2023 17:16

Oh FFS. In the article there's one sensible historian talking about the way references to femininity were used to demean enemies and a completely unqualified idiot---- person saying TW. Fed up of these attempts to rewrite history assuming that everyone lives in 2023.

ImNunTheWiser · 24/11/2023 17:00

TheMarzipanDildo · 21/11/2023 22:20

Love Tom Holland (historian, have no view on actor)

Just to add nothing to the conversation, (the actor) Tom Holland’s pater is Dom Holland. Presumably his mater is Mom Holland…unless she goes by ‘Mr’…

MaatSeshat · 24/11/2023 16:58

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 24/11/2023 16:52

I am glad to see historians are speaking up and pointing out the source of the claim he was trans is literally a well known example of character assassination Roman propaganda

There seem to be a lot of people who think that political propaganda, character assassination of your enemies and imputation to them of any and every sexual vice is a new thing.

DumboHimalayan · 24/11/2023 16:47

On the plus side, the BBC article itself used accurate pronouns throughout.

MaatSeshat · 24/11/2023 16:36

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Chersfrozenface · 24/11/2023 10:05

Grammarnut · 22/11/2023 15:35

Oh, was he that one? I've got a rather nice picture of that 'event'. Looks very pretty. Doubt it happened - but then...Caligula...Tiberius....nutjobs in general....

The pretty picture is probably 'The Roses of Heliogabalus' by Sir Laurence Alma-Tadema (originally Lourens Alma Tadema), a Dutch artist who settled in London.

He was matey with the Pre-Raphaelites. His work was popular in his day, fell out of favour later and became fashionable again in the 1960s.

Froodwithatowel · 23/11/2023 22:11

An article on this appeared on social media today. The comments were all, without exception, amused and exasperated, and spoke of patience now gone for all this.

SerafinasGoose · 23/11/2023 21:15

Bad news: once you're a gonner your bones will instantly reveal the indisputable, inescapable fact of your sex.

Death is the great leveller. It doesn't give a shit about your innate sense of a 'gender' identity, and there's nothing you can do to 'cancel' it for its bigoted disregard of trans rights.

Death is the ultimate TERF.

agent765 · 23/11/2023 20:39

They consulted Stonewall? That bit made me LOL!

Caffeineislife · 22/11/2023 20:13

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel I am so jealous. I would love to work for an independent. LA museum here and it is so hard to bite my tongue sometimes with some of the fashionable policies.

vernatheraven · 22/11/2023 18:17

There will be a reason for wanting to change history I am just too tired today to work out what the long game is with them.

vernatheraven · 22/11/2023 18:16

Well the tide is turning now so maybe dead people who can't object are the new targets.

Grammarnut · 22/11/2023 15:35

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/11/2023 20:10

Well yes, I guess if we believe he identified as a woman we also have to believe he murdered his dinner guests by suffocating them with rose petals. Typical TRA elevation of the feelings of violent criminals.

Oh, was he that one? I've got a rather nice picture of that 'event'. Looks very pretty. Doubt it happened - but then...Caligula...Tiberius....nutjobs in general....

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 22/11/2023 15:27

Caffeineislife · 22/11/2023 12:23

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel I know it's so sad. As someone who works in heritage and museum education it is sad and shocking how few staff in the decision making roles have any passion let alone qualifications in history, archeology or classics. Lots of us boots on the ground have a passion for and qualifications related to history, archeology, classics ect. The marketing directors and those "spokespeople" for the museum are the worst for having no passion or appreciation for the past, they just like to posture in front of the camera claiming to represent the newest SJW fad.

Well done for sticking it out.
I just do freelance and volunteering I enjoy for very carefully selected organisations these days. Independent museums/trusts and historic houses tend to be a lot less bound by fashionable policies and can still be just as innovative and forward looking, while retaining a much clearer idea of what their actual purpose is. Local authority museums are a lost cause imo. University museums might recover one day but only if universities manage to sort themselves out.

RethinkingLife · 22/11/2023 13:29

Transing the dead seems to be fashionable.

William Ferguson: How Trans Rights Activists Are Declaring The Dead "Trans" As They're No Longer With Us And Can't Object To The Anachronism

https://williamaferguson.substack.com/p/trans-out-your-dead?s=r

Trans Out Your Dead

How Trans Rights Activists Are Declaring The Dead "Trans" As They're No Longer With Us And Can't Object To The Anachronism

https://williamaferguson.substack.com/p/trans-out-your-dead?s=r

Caffeineislife · 22/11/2023 12:23

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel I know it's so sad. As someone who works in heritage and museum education it is sad and shocking how few staff in the decision making roles have any passion let alone qualifications in history, archeology or classics. Lots of us boots on the ground have a passion for and qualifications related to history, archeology, classics ect. The marketing directors and those "spokespeople" for the museum are the worst for having no passion or appreciation for the past, they just like to posture in front of the camera claiming to represent the newest SJW fad.

CatonmyKeyboard · 22/11/2023 10:49

Pronouns declensions, eh?

'I decline pronouns.'

Yep, that works.

LadyBevvy · 22/11/2023 10:33

They chose the most perverse, bloodthirsty and dangerous Roman Emperor other than Caligula.

Quite fitting tbh.

They can have him!

I fell out of love with academic Classics in the early 00s when West Coast scholars started applying Butlerian theories of gender to sexual relations in acnient Greece and Rome. Total bullshit and non-empirical but the notions still float around the academy.

I'll stick with re-reading the Odyssey and give academic Classics, and the trans-ing of Classics, the middle finger.

FinallyPeakedNow · 22/11/2023 08:29

My husband once sang 'Man, I feel like a woman' at a karaoke night. I think it would be kind to change his pronouns for him now. I think that's the rule, right? If a man, under any circumstances, declares that he is a woman even one time then get it on his fucking gravestone

Also, Eddie Izzard specifically stated that he didn't mind people calling him 'he' and 'Eddie' (grabbing the highest privileges afforded to both sexes in one fell swoop but you know, putting that aside) so WTF do people insist on 'honouring' his ridiculous alter-ego pronouns in serious articles? I was speaking to a friend (ex-friend perhaps) and she told me off for calling him Eddie, and told me I was being hateful. HE SAID HE DIDN'T MIND

Well fuck all that shit I'm out

Musomama1 · 22/11/2023 07:47

I guess one of the silver linings of being entirely unremarkable and unknown in public life is that no one is going to trans me in a couple of thousand years.

MinnieMountain · 22/11/2023 05:47

I think so @HelenaRavenclaw . Unfortunately I’ve given my copy of Emperor away but she expressed it in terms of “these emperors, you never know where you are with them”.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 22/11/2023 05:36

AbondonedThemePark · 21/11/2023 22:27

God what a load of bollocks.

This.

ArthurbellaScott · 21/11/2023 22:45

JanesLittleGirl · 21/11/2023 22:12

Here is Arabellum.These are her pronouns.

Hic est Arabellum. Haec sunt pronomina eius.

Here is Arabellum.These are his pronouns.

Hic est Arabellum. Haec sunt eius pronomina.

Roman pronouns were not prominent, were rarely gendered, never sexed and only used for emphasis or to support a sentence that had no verb. E.g. "Et tu Brute". Which, incidentally, was a line in a play written by some bloke from Warwickshire and not spoken by Caesar.

Thanks. I'm even more confused now! 😁