A side thought ...

You'll notice that no men, none, ever want to be middle-aged women. Even the ones like Eddie Izzard that are in fact middle-aged. This tells you that really they don't want to be women, what they want to be is a pornified version of a woman that exists only in their imagination.

Again, reading the trans widows thread is enlightening in this regard.

That photo of Eddie in the queue for the loos in London is also enlightening - all the women in gender neutral clothing and Ed in stockings and a bright pink coat touching his cock. We're supposed to be kind, you say?

When men transition they never suddenly want to do all the unpaid work that women do unseen every day and that they'd not bothered with as men. Maybe a bit of performative dusting in a frilly apron gives them those Malaga feelings but the trudging along carrying too much shopping feeling like your arms are going to fall off with a whiny 6 year old complaining the whole way because the car's on the blink and the kids need dinner? The getting up in the night to clear up vomit and poo from the latest vomiting bug brought home from school? The taking over the endless endless admin of emails from school, trips to pay for, dental and doctor and hair cut and optician and shoe measuring appointments to make? Nit combing?Nope.

As for having dysphoria, honestly I think it's neither here nor there in the discussion of what it means to be a woman.

A male person with dysphoria doesn't feel like a woman, they feel like a male person with dysphoria.

And even if being male and having dysphoria was an identity and being female and not having dysphoria was an identity, which I dispute, they would not be the same identity.

Well. So do I, but this is a very personal thing. I know men who wish they could have had the opportunity to bear children and women who would gladly outsource the whole thing to their husband if they could.

But take childbearing out of the equation for a minute. Let's say you didn't want children or you knew you were completely infertile and had zero chance of bearing children. Would you still want to be a woman or would you prefer to be a man and have male privilege?

Because the way I see it, bearing children is the only thing women can do which men can't do, and although it may bring us joy, we also suffer discrimination, disadvantage and hardship because of it. We can neither enjoy male privilege nor opt out of our own sex based discrimination by identifying as a man. Since no one can change sex and no one has a choice as to whether they are male or female, there's not much point in considering whether you would rather be the opposite of what we are; all we can do is work towards equality.

Trans women will never bear children because they don't have the right anatomy. So why would they want to "be" women in any other respect? What is the advantage of being a woman, once you take childbearing out of the equation?

Hmm. I think it's probably a lot more complicated than either of us can put into a short forum post, @CurlewKate.

I don't think even men who opt for the red pill/incel life find life to be without challenges - they're just different ones.

(Please nobody mistake this as sympathy for men who chose to be terrible people)

@Grimchmas "I think being a man comes with it's own challenges"

I think being a decent man does. I don't think just being a man does.

I think being a man comes with it's own challenges, same as being a woman.

I just wish young people weren't naive enough to think they they can identify out of them.

Especially not into an identity that comes with more, and bigger challenges.

If he continues down this route he won't be a parent; he will have the as yet unacknowledged health problems associated with taking a lifetime of cross-sex hormones, he will have a drastically reduced chance of finding partners, and a drastically higher chance of mental health issues.

"Feeling privileged" is a state of mind. Being privileged - socially, economically etc. - is a fact.

I have huge sympathy for anyone who has any sort of dysphoria. It must be hell.

I feel immensely privileged to have borne children.

So, it probably depends how you frame it.

Same! I bloody love being a woman!

I think you'll find that on a feminist forum you'll find absolutely no sympathy for any male that suffers from gender dysphoria

Males with 'gender' dysphoria are just that. Not being comfortable in your body doesn't mean you are the opposite sex.

Funny how the neighbours son says he is 'turned off' by toxic masculinity. Does that mean he is 'turned on' by being feminine?

Perhaps his mother should check his internet history.

Influenced by porn, media, more porn, TikTok, porn and fantasies about particular women or girls they have known… plus porn.

Apart from young boys in school; they are influenced by men who are influenced by porn.

Men who think they want to be women have no real idea of what it would be like. Their ideas are based on their own male views of women and girls and often influenced by particular women or girls they have known, plus porn, media etc.

I don't particularly want to be a man because I have no frame of reference for being a man, I know that I can never be one, and there are things about my lived experience of womanhood that I am very grateful for.

But objectively, men are more privileged, are they not?

Who would want to be less privileged?

it’s still the same level of male entitlement and only seeing women through the male gaze as support humans not real people.

Exactly.

@MargotBamborough "Why would anyone be a woman if they could choose?"

God, I would! Every time!

3) If he thought men were dicks, you think he might just try and be a good man to women. It doesn't take very long to realise that the trans movement is hugely detrimental to women, and a super toxic environment for men. It is entirely about eroding women's boundaries. So I don't think he can be that motivated by his care, not really.

Exactly. At the very least there's huge cognitive dissonance going on.

Same kind of energy as men who cat call women in the street saying we should be flattered.

Why would anyone be a woman if they could choose?

Sounds like he doesn't want to be a Bad Man. The obvious choice then isn't to opt into being a woman, but instead to be a Good Man. One of those who treat women with respect and as human beings, not a costume to try on or a character to emulate.

I can remember my mother saying 40 years ago about Jan Morris "Why would anyone be a man if they could choose?"

Hes only a trans lesbian if straight women who want to have sex with him count as lesbians too. Which somewhat contradicts the meaning of lesbian. Obviously he can't have a lesbian relationship with a lesbian - lesbians are HOMOsexual. Kid wants to learn some Greek.

I mean if he wants to be feminine (not female, he can't be that) presenting enby then he could try that I guess?

But yeah. My dh is not at all toxic. We need more non toxic men to go and fly the flag for respecting womens boundaries.

Maybe he needs some better (less toxic) friends?

Yes it does feel like that doesn’t it?

”it just occurred to me that some men appropriating womanhood, trampling their boundaries, treating women as sex fulfilment servants, and demanding access to their spaces are actually men trying to be nice. Bet you hadn’t thought of that! Gotcha!”

It doesn't take very long to realise that the trans movement is hugely detrimental to women

I think it depends what people have consumed.

I don't know how ubiquitous the images of tra's from the protests are and if young people are likely to come across them if they're dipping their toe in the water of "thinking about your gender identity", which seems to be something that's sold to young people as being important and desirable in schools and colleges.

I would hope that getting in quick and showing them this other side might make them rethink before any subsequent brain washing can occur.

I wasn't aware of it until I looked beneath the surface but that was in 2020 and it must be easier to stumble across now but thinking back to being outside the bubble before I knew better I used to think that trans women were the most oppressed based on the one very gentle but ultimately very whiny trans women I knew, because that was the only messaging I'd come across.

There are so many 'right on' places that have mixed sex toilets in our area that trying to explain that despite the labelling, a young man who wants to be a woman really needs to stick with the loo marked "urinals, basins, toilet cubicles' rather than the one that says 'basins, toilet cubicles' could be a pretty hard battle to fight. Especially if you're having to tread carefully with a close relative who could easily be lost to this madness completely if they don't retain their family connections which are hopefully their way back to sanity.

Theres a growing idea that feminists are responsible for men identifying as women and i think this mans attitude reflects this.

As women are more financially independent and not wanting to have families, the male role has diminished. Women highlighting male violence has put a spotlight onto male behaviour. So men are seen as superfluous and antisocial in a female world.

So they want to be women, be the sex that is more respected.

This, of course, is utter nonsense. Its men at best trying to intellectualise, at worst telling women 'you made me do it', when its a phenomenon thats been around for years, since before women even had the vote.

Whats shocking to me, is how young these men are wanting to perform 'woman' in public. Im sure it used to be a middle aged thing - dressing up privately and in clubs satisfied them while young, but as they aged, they needed perform in public. Or maybe i didnt see younger men because they were subtler about it?

Now these men have gone from 'i want to try on some knickers' to 'i going to the supermarket in fishnets' to 'everyone needs to address me as Miss' in a matter if weeks, when it used to take years.

I think the only thing thats changed is mothers having to deal with their 18 year old sons doing it when previously they werent aware until their sons were middle aged.