A side thought ...

I know a TW like this, who I'm sure holds these views sincerely. The problem is that they are accompanied by a sort of callousness towards women that betrays a total failure of 'theory of mind'. Complains bitterly about how transphobic all our vawg colleagues are, but doesn't stop to wonder why.....

A male friend in the process of adopting a trans identity gave me this line about hating toxic masculinity some years ago. I felt sympathetic. He turned out to be creepy AF.

As I said a couple of days ago, "nice guy" is an MRA cliche for a reason.

Rogd in teen boys is very much a thing.
You've got the perfect storm of boys feeling like a square peg and trying to work out why, a welcoming rainbow glitter lovebombing set of new peers either in the school/college or online, plus the place of learning jumping to affirm.

The fact that school affirms but Nige at the local papershop does not goes to confirm that they feel better when someone pretends to perceive them as they want to be seen and 'dysphoria' sets in. Combine that with a body that's a bit sweaty and awkward and a chin that needs shaving twice per day and their body is suddenly the enemy.

Then they start to look back over their childhood to the time their mam let them have a princess dress when they were 4 and at some point a girl once told him she felt really comfortable with him and that she saw him as one of the girls really and suddenly the whole thing makes sense to them.

There's probably a small window when they're able to hear the truth before they're on the slippery slope to self victimisation, being groomed and so on but the fact that reality flies in the face of all the pride flags, in school affirmation, mixed sex loos and so on makes it harder to turn the juggernaut around.

What I find rather amusing is the juvenile idea that only you - and a very small number of oppressed people - are different from the stereotypes, which apply to everyone else - but only different enough to pop over the border into the other set of stereotypes.

Imagine if the stereotypes were actually bullshit for everyone, and sex wasn't really anything to do with what kind of a person you are!? No, that's too radical an idea. Easier to stick with what they've lazily assumed.

A male friend in the process of adopting a trans identity gave me this line about hating toxic masculinity some years ago. I felt sympathetic. He turned out to be creepy AF.

I think it's one of the lines felt to be useful for gaining female sympathy.

To be honest I'm kind of surprised this is news to so many on this thread. I read (and speak to) genderist as well as gender critical people and been aware that this is a significant cohort for years.

One of the worrying things about the TRA "all or nothing" approach to trans rights is that groups of people with very different motivations for their trans identity are being told they are all the same.

Some (not all) of the malignant personalities are self aware enough to know that's not true but are happy to play along for their own benefit, either access to the other groups or to make their activist demands look more palatable.

Some malignant personalities genuinely assume the others are the same, putting those groups at risk of ending up in situations they hadn't anticipated and are not comfortable with.

Similarly, the young and naive trans people, for whom a trans identity is a way to distance themseles from the negative stereotypes of their own sex, also assume everyone else is the same, making them vulnerable to deliberate exploitation and to social contagion as they incorporate elements from these disparate groups into their own concept of "trans".

#NoDebate and #A#AcceptanceWithoutException don't just hurt female people, they hurt a!lot of young and/or vulnerable trans people as well.

@Signalbox

Yes exactly. I think that's where the righteous anger of younger TRAs come from, because they are thinking of their trans friends who see trans as simple gender non conformity and Man/Woman based on sex as regressive social stereotypes. They don't have the experience or self awareness yet to recognise that female and male bodies have different physical capabilities, nor that society's individual and structural bias leads to different treatment and outcomes.

There used to be 2 types of men who transition. AGP and HSTS. Now there is clearly a third type and that’s the post puberty rogd boys who have been influenced by the brainwashing in schools and online activity. I know one of these boys. No previous signs of gender non conformity. “Transitioned” at 14 during Covid. Changed name and pronouns. Now has died pink hair and the youth style of clothing (which frankly just looks like crusty/emo style). I don’t think it’s AGP it’s just a youth culture. Hopefully his parents will keep him away from the conveyor belt of drugs and surgery and he’ll stay out of women’s spaces.

If I spent less time with other women with boundaries I'd embrace the subordination and exclusion of women, child safeguarding disasters and enablement of male supremacism? Well that's a novel view. 🙄

There are many wonderful men in my life. I also believe in the equality of women and the rights of women and children to be equal to those of men, including the right to say no to them. Particularly those men who are not wonderful, and who feel their feelings and wishes should entitle them to use said women and children as resources and NPCs in their personal dramas.

Fgs enablement of others is not a healthy thing. Codependence is not a healthy thing. It's not something nice women should be aspiring to, it's something a woman should be seeking help in overcoming.

That's because you're spending too much time on mn/ gc circles

IRL most of my friends don't think men are toxic or worse than women.

My husband is a gentle soul, no toxic masculinity there by way of one example

Truly, NAMALT.

SaffronSpice
Dolphins are vicious creatures.

Yes, sexual obsessives.

I wonder if they like Japanese cartoon porn.

Yes, sexual obsessives.

I don't think I'd want to be a man. If I could do it for a week and change back, I would, because I think it would be very interesting, but I would not do it for good.

I don't feel like men are more privileged, TBH, as a group. Men and women have some different challenges and trade-offs they have to make peace with in their lives. That's something that can't be reconciled through a lens of fairness.

But I really like being a woman.

I thought we weren't to mention dolphins anymore.

Dolphins are vicious creatures.

I often despise the way humans treat each other and the planet but I can't help the situation by rebranding myself as a dolphin.

A straight man thinks women are superior? Now he wants to ‘be’ a woman and get his own ‘lesbian’ as a reward?

Sorry. This is how I read it. Men who identify as ‘good’ or ‘women’ sometimes do so in hopes of praise, rewards, fawning, centring, sex, etc.

It isn’t new or different. Same old misogyny now with added kink.

My kids are the best thing in my life. The most difficult, expensive, time-consuming thing. Sure. The thing that has affected my career, my life chances, my health and my salary the most (all in a negative way). Definitely. But nevertheless, the best thing.

However, in a theoretical universe where I was 20 and told there was no way I could ever have children, categorically, then yes, I'd choose to be a man I think - but only if that was a real actual change your chromosomes thing not an 'identifies as' delusion.

What a load of rubbish, he just wants to be seen as a good guy while doing exactly what he wants to do, make women uncomfortable by trespassing in our spaces.

I often despise the way humans treat each other and the planet but I can't help the situation by rebranding myself as a dolphin.

Let's say you didn't want children or you knew you were completely infertile and had zero chance of bearing children. Would you still want to be a woman or would you prefer to be a man and have male privilege?

No I wouldn't. I love being a woman. I've worked hard to be comfortable in this body that I've got and to like it despite all the social messaging that tells me I should not. I bloody love being middle aged. I get that I might not appreciate the invisibility if I hadn't had the female experiences I had, but since I don't know what the alternative is then I'm going to appreciate the heck out of it.
I love spending time with female friends and I wouldn't be able to do that if I was a man. I live the depth of friendship that I'm not sure men can achieve so easily with each other or with groups of women.
I wouldn't swap. It's been shit. Recognising how it's been shit rather than pretending we have equality has been even more shit, but it's all I know. If I could wake up as a man tomorrow in a man's body and with men's experiences, I would turn that opportunity down.

I think he’s unwittingly reinforcing the stereotypes about men that make him uncomfortable. He says he doesn’t like toxic masculinity, but by his actions he’s reinforcing the idea that that’s what ‘real men’ should be like. He’s saying, “I don’t indulge in toxic masculinity ergo I’m not a man”, thereby connecting that toxic masculinity with manhood.

He’s also reinforcing stereotypes by implying that in order to be feminine he has to be a woman - ie men ‘aren’t allowed’ to be feminine.

It’s so regressive and I really don’t understand why so many young people can’t see that.

And does he really like women? I don’t mean sexually, I mean in the way you said that he likes women so much he wants to be one. He just sees us a costume, as ‘man-lite’, not as human beings in our own right. If he really liked us, he’d stop pretending to be a women because he’d know he never could be. And if he’s dressing ‘as a woman’ to signal his lack of toxic masculinity to potential partners, he’ll be turning a lot of them off.

I think it does, but I’m just one man among billions, so it’s possible it doesn’t always. But I still think it does.

It’s not so very awful being a man. You do have to give up some other people’s expectations of you though, unless you find all the stereotypes come naturally.

I’m slightly reminded of Miriam Margolyes, who, I hasten to add, has good qualities too.