Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Thread gallery
7
IcakethereforeIam · 24/11/2023 23:44

The Guardian, although there's some silly shallying, comes down on Elagabalus being a he. It seems the museum is misgendering him and fomenting the lies of his enemies, the people who murdered him. Not very kind.

“We don’t know what Elagabalus was like. We don’t know how Elagabalus saw himself. But we have portraits and coins that all look male, that portray him with male facial hair, male features and in garments that would have been understood as male within Elagabalus’s culture – including the coin that the museum has at the centre of its display.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/24/was-roman-emperor-elagabalus-really-trans-and-does-it-really-matter

Was Roman emperor Elagabalus really trans – and does it really matter?

Teenage ruler has become genderqueer icon but historians including Mary Beard advise caution over ‘tall stories’

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/24/was-roman-emperor-elagabalus-really-trans-and-does-it-really-matter

OP posts:
Ofcourseshecan · 22/11/2023 18:24

Flickersy · 21/11/2023 10:24

It doesn't do that at all.

It mentions the galli (castrated male priests) and says that in modern days they might perhaps be considered trans women.

Edited

Makes sense if you believe women are defective humans, therefore a man who is castrated becomes a sort of woman.

NotTerfNorCis · 22/11/2023 18:07

What I'm noticing is that TRAs assume he was a transwoman, and therefore must have been a good, progressive feminist who has been cruelly smeared.

They honestly believe that... it's bizarre.

They would have said the same about Nero or Caligula if either of them liked pretending to be women.

TWETMIRF · 22/11/2023 15:51

PatriciaHolm · 21/11/2023 21:05

m.youtube.com/watch?v=qWwAC9dOTCE

Wonder if anyone's told Matthew Baynton?

(About 55 seconds in..)

Always nice to have an excuse to perv over Mat. He was the first thing I thought of when I saw Elagabalus mentioned 😍

IcakethereforeIam · 22/11/2023 11:02

Joan Smith in Unherd

https://unherd.com/thepost/even-the-roman-empire-isnt-safe-from-trans-ideology/

Some interesting comments, although a few are a bit....!

My knowledge of Latin pretty much begins and ends with that scene from The Life of Brian. Although one of the arguments I haven't seen put forward to support Elagabalus, sorry, Elagabala being trans is pictured in my OP and 👇. I mean, look! SHe had a bust!

Even the Roman Empire isn't safe from trans ideology

Museums in this country are becoming a laughing stock. In the latest example of capture by dogma, references to the early third-century emperor Elagabalus at a museum in North Hertfordshire will in future refer to him as “she” in an attempt to be “sens...

https://unherd.com/thepost/even-the-roman-empire-isnt-safe-from-trans-ideology

OP posts:
PatriciaHolm · 21/11/2023 21:05

m.youtube.com/watch?v=qWwAC9dOTCE

Wonder if anyone's told Matthew Baynton?

(About 55 seconds in..)

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 21/11/2023 20:51

RoyalCorgi · 21/11/2023 09:48

Oh god. That absolutely makes me despair. Young people are being taught this shit and apparently there's nothing we can do about it.

Not heard of Julius Caesar ('every woman's man and every man's woman') or Caligula then.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 21/11/2023 20:48

Elagabalus was high priest(ess) of a religion very similar to that of Cybele that they promoted above the official state religion focused on Capitoline Jupiter

Didn't need a doctor, adherents of Cybele ritually castrated themselves. If this religion was very similar they could have adopted the same practice.

Agrona · 21/11/2023 20:42

Interesting article. Thank you.

OP posts:
NotTerfNorCis · 21/11/2023 13:44

Elagabalus was by all accounts a raging pervert, for whom identifying as a woman was only one of his quirks.

How trustworthy 'all accounts' are is debatable.

nettie434 · 21/11/2023 13:31

not sure the target audience would want to adopt Elagabalus as an icon

That's what I wondered too @Inamuddle36. It's like an article about trans women in sport using Fallon Fox as a victim.

Chersfrozenface · 21/11/2023 13:21

DiDonk · 21/11/2023 13:06

Doh, must it's the definite article they don't have isn't it? Poor old Latin teacher must be spinning in his grave.

Quite right, no definite or indefinite article in Classical Latin.

In Late Latin ille/illa/illud came to be used pretty much as the definite article - previously meant 'those'. That's the root of the definite articles in Romance languages.

DiDonk · 21/11/2023 13:06

Doh, must it's the definite article they don't have isn't it? Poor old Latin teacher must be spinning in his grave.

Chersfrozenface · 21/11/2023 12:39

Found the pronouns

  • I - Ego.
  • You - Tu.
  • He/She/It - Is/Ea/Id.
  • We - Nos.
  • You - Vos.
  • They - Ei.

Mind you, the basis of the claim about pronouns is that our El is supposed to have told one (male) lover "Call me not Lord, for I am a Lady”, according to Cassius Dio.

Chersfrozenface · 21/11/2023 12:19

DiDonk · 21/11/2023 11:52

"We know that Elagabalus identified as a woman and was explicit about which pronouns to use, which shows that pronouns are not a new thing.”

Slightly missing the point and it's been a while since I was at school but doesn't Latin not actually have pronouns?

It must have done.

"Et tu, Brute?

DiDonk · 21/11/2023 11:52

"We know that Elagabalus identified as a woman and was explicit about which pronouns to use, which shows that pronouns are not a new thing.”

Slightly missing the point and it's been a while since I was at school but doesn't Latin not actually have pronouns?

OldCrone · 21/11/2023 11:50

This is from another article on the museum website. It's by the same author as the other one, Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews, who is the museum curator. So it does seem to be the curator who is in favour of transing the dead.

Emperor Elagabalus referred to Hierocles, a freedman who was a successful charioteer, as his husband. After granting him his freedom, the emperor attempted to have him declared Caesar, a junior partner in rule and intended successor. A second lover, an athlete named Zoticus, was appointed cubicularius (keeper of the bedroom). The ancient sources suggest that Elagabalus also married him and three other men in addition to his official husband, Hierocles; the historian Cassius Dio refers to the emperor’s relationships with these four other men as adultery, showing that the marriage to Hierocles was treated as a serious legal matter. If they were alive today, we would probably think of Elagabalus as transgender, as he reportedly asked whether a surgical procedure could make him female.

https://northhertsmuseum.org/romosexuality-sexuality-in-the-ancient-world/

SinnerBoy · 21/11/2023 11:45

Fair dos, but it does seem to be the case that it's true.

Flickersy · 21/11/2023 11:41

SinnerBoy · 21/11/2023 11:36

I don't think it's made up. I do think it likely to be unreasonably exaggerated which is why I said I would withhold judgement without seeing the exhibit (or photos of it, which are mysteriously absent) for myself.

OK, then I don't see why you're getting annoyed about it.

I'm not annoyed. I am questioning the version of events as presented in the Telegraph (and reprinted in other papers).

SinnerBoy · 21/11/2023 11:36

I don't think it's made up. I do think it likely to be unreasonably exaggerated which is why I said I would withhold judgement without seeing the exhibit (or photos of it, which are mysteriously absent) for myself.

OK, then I don't see why you're getting annoyed about it.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 21/11/2023 11:11

IcakethereforeIam · 21/11/2023 11:10

How about this

The cemetery at Bainesse, near the Roman town of Catterick, contained a skeleton that archaeologists identified as a fourth-century gallus with her necklace and bracelets but with DNA showing that she had been born male.

Note the pronouns.

Why can they not see that this is sexist crap????

Chersfrozenface · 21/11/2023 11:10

Flickersy · 21/11/2023 10:54

Fair enough, I missed that line. But I don't think that's actually claiming they became women tbh.

"..to make themselves women"

IcakethereforeIam · 21/11/2023 11:10

How about this

The cemetery at Bainesse, near the Roman town of Catterick, contained a skeleton that archaeologists identified as a fourth-century gallus with her necklace and bracelets but with DNA showing that she had been born male.

Note the pronouns.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread