"TERF Island" - Pondering why we're so "TERFy"

Enjoying this v much. Thank you.

Generational memories: As one of the older members if this forum, I recall the phrase 'creeping American cultural imperialism' from the 70s, at about the time I was reading Small is Beautiful and The Female Eunuch and Vodka Cola. A lot of the drive behind genderism is associated with financial profit in the US, from big pharmaceutical to Toys R Us.

@Hopelesslydevotedtoshrews 'Things just weren't quite so obviously codified pink for girls and blue for boys for earlier generations.'

Toys R US came to the UK in 1985; my daughter was born about that time, and I was shocked to see their aisles labelled 'Boys' and 'Girls'. We weren't used to that.

I never voted for Thatcher, and disliked much of her politics. But when BA dressed planes in a livery she thought undignified for our national airline, she got it changed. I cannot imagine how she would have reacted to current events!

The explanations offered here cover most of the reasons, I think, but a major one surely is that the proposed self-identification was openly discussed in the media on TERF Island, while in other countries the changes seem to have happened rather hidden from public limelight so that most people were not even aware of them, or were told that nothing would affect anyone else but only benefit a very tiny and marginalised minority. (the nothing-to-see-here-move-on strategy).

@Aaron95 oh hang on - you think that "who is defined as a man or woman" only affects a subset of people who are trans? Why?

arrons "The chances of most people knowing or meeting anyone trans are tiny" ?!? Give me strength!

the tiny amount and hardly anyone has ever met one doesn't hold true anymore, not that it ever did. I remember transwomen out and about when I was 18 so many decades ago.

Now I don't even have kids and have nothing to do with schools and hardly leave the house.... And yet.... my neighbour is a transwoman. one of the cashiers at my local supermarket is a transman. There's a transwoman works at the bigger supermarket round the corner. On the rare occasions I've been in town during the day I've seen different transwomen from the ones I've already mentioned. I'm sure if I went out more I'd see plenty of others. And I don't live anywhere special.

Yes, despite living in rural, sparsely-populated, farming Devon, a local factory recently summarily dismissed a worker for apparently transphobing a transwoman in the office by asking - accidentally, innocently - what they’d liked doing when they “were a boy”.

IT’S EVERYWHERE.

I've met so many trans people - 2 prior to 2010, then since that time 10 more. To me that's quite a lot. If I'd met 12 pub landlords, I would notice. Particularly if 16 year old girls were suddenly becoming pub landlords in groups, despite all being teetotal as well. It's quite a change.

You might draw a useful distinction because the court cases, media and support has been the product largely of English skeptics. There is a good adversial culture built into courts and the press here, and I think that extends to Mumsnet.

Scottish court system absolutely not, Scottish press supine largely because of nationalism and the grip of the SNP. Hopefully changing a little.

And of course, Mumsnet, which permits a debate and an adversarial discussion.

Education levels and ability to do critical thinking without swallowing any old shite you are told? I mean why do the US have those TV preachers that spout about miracles....didn't work here for David icke everyone just thought he was a loon.

The only person I know who has swallowed it hook line and sinker in spite of being a seemingly intelligent person is American, everyone else I know is just polite, but doesn't actually believe TWAW.

Our media. The press is supine in many other countries by comparison. Janice Turner’s column in The Times did a lot of heavy lifting.

A third of the girls in my DD’s year 9 identified as trans (10 classes of 30, approx 50/50 boys and girls, so 1/3 of the girls = 50 in a single year!)

At least half have since desisted (they are now year 13).

Proper bonkers stuff.

The chances of anyone meeting a trans person are not tiny if they work at a school, go to a school or have a child who is at school. The chances are then close to 100%

'Dingle-sexed provision'

...what an apt typo! 😂

Sorry!

'A tiny number of people identify as trans. An even smaller percentage will try to change their gender. The chances of most people knowing or meeting anyone trans are tiny. It will never affect most people in their everyday lives.

But the INFLUENCE of them! Where d'ya reckon 'chest feeders' and 'people who menstruate' comes from?

You might be fine with the erasure of the language surrounding your sex, but I'm not.

Pay a lil bit more attention to the 'women' in the ladies WC queue. 🤔

Console your niece as she loses her hard won place on a sports team because it was given to a boy.

Rejoice at the piss on your jeans from the repurposed 'ladies WCs' floor, while noting the men's' is still for men.

Cheer as your health care is denied because you object to a bloke in a frock performing intimate care on you when you asked for dingle-sex provision.

Then come back to us.

You do you, if you're okay

Sarah Pedersen's Politicalisation Of Mumsnet from 2020 lloked at the crucial part MN played in the TERF wars. Having a space to debate and clarify thoughts and arguments was so important.

Also the sheer number of grassroots feminist groups that emerged, unwilling to let our rights be eroded unchallenged. And yes, Dr Nic Williams and the others leading the inital challenges.

If you polled the public and polled the political elites of the U.K. and other English speaking countries I think the views of public and the views of the political and social elites would be broadly the same everywhere.

But the views of a largely passive public don’t really matter much, change, current events, news etc is always driven by the elites or by a small but active organised minority of the general population.

Organisation requires organisers, or leaders if you will. It’s just chance that the U.K. had a few of those competent organisers in its borders. There are a handful of women in the U.K. that if they weren’t there so called terf island wouldn’t be a thing.

Have you seen the Boots website thread where women are described as people who have a vagina, the word woman has been erased.

that affects more than a tiny minority.

The other issue is gender indoctrination in schools. Which does impact many more

Plus captured institutions and compelled speech

People who are transgender are a tiny minority it is true, but the idea society has to re order for that tiny percentage is really not the right way to go, and does impact many more, women and children in particular

If we acknowledged humans can’t change sex, and didn’t use the law for a fiction, then yes great - a small proportion of people would have little effect on the vast majority. As it should be

It’s not about trans people, it’s about women’s rights to single sex spaces, sports, refuges, prisons, support groups, changing rooms and to not be erased from conditions that only affect women like menopause or pregnancy

its about 51% of the population no longer having a word to describe them and ONLY them. If you can’t define women, you can’t protect & support them

It's not a matter of belief. I doubt many people care because it does't affect them.

A tiny number of people identify as trans. An even smaller percentage will try to change their gender. The chances of most people knowing or meeting anyone trans are tiny. It will never affect most people in their everyday lives.

This! Plus of course we know how confused people are by the deliberate mangling of language to the extent a third of the public think TW are women who want to be men

It was mumsnet that alerted me to the threat to women’s rights. After reading a few ding dongs involving Posie Parker I realised what the problem is.

Previously I thought it was rather flattering that men were identifiying as women and thought it represented a step forward for feminism. I’d probably still think that without mumsnet.

Joined for the parenting and DIY advice, stayed for the feminism.

Yes Labour brought in the GRA. And Harriet Harman appears to have remained susceptible to every pressure group out there, according to her autobiography - she really should get a lot more grief for that.

But I'm talking about timing - that after Obama's policy change made gender transition an income stream for US doctors and surgeons, the whole issue blew up culturally in English speaking circles. And at that time, there was a Tory government here. Which means that it wasn't previously a purely left/right wedge issue here, though it's heading that way now.

I truly think a lot is the absolute piss taking nature that exists here, on Twitter posters from the UK were the first I ever saw to say "you're having a fucking laff!" to a 16st brick house of a man lecturing women on womanhood because his inner gender feels meant he knew better.

And a history of fabulous women who really couldn't give a shiny shite!

And as regards MN - Justine Roberts holding the line. And it not being taken over as Reddit was by mods like, allegedly, a certain Mstr Challenor.

I’m not sure what you mean here

there was a Tory government in post when our big watershed (GRA reform and the consultation about it) came in

Labour brought in the GRA, as bad as it is, in 2004