KJK

That should be: Just one male entering a female single sex space just once impacts many women and girls.

And ‘enlighten’ should be ‘enlightenment’.

Well, it finally sank in that plopping in to the support thread for transwidows was just yet another, while the worst, boundary that this male individual didn’t want to recognise. And that behaviour was vile and there was never any going back on it. Just like the barrister who I won’t name appearing on Sarah Summer’s support thread. There was no coming back from this weekend’s boundary breach.

It just showed there is nowhere this group of male people believe is an area where they shouldn’t go. The absolute male entitlement of traversing anywhere where there is no law, or a physical boundary to stop them, just because they can. Never once thinking of someone other than themselves.

The final parting post thought of believing that ‘progress’ was made was a thing of glory. The misogyny of telling us that they contributed in some way to positive understanding and progress when the reality is the only ‘progress’ was that more posters than before now can recognise the signs of misogyny and fetish than before.

But then I guess we all got a fresh exposure to the falsity of the ‘middle ground’ type of argument. That desperate grasp of ‘at least it is only when no other options are available’ from people needing to be seen as kind. When the truth is, it is not kind and never was.

Just one male entering a female single sex space impacts many women and girls. And sure, more posters got to see more of the lack of logic, and evidence, behind the emotionally manipulative ‘but it is unsafe for me in the male toilets’.

Nothing new really though.

A male person arrived, used women as a resource. This time for therapeutic value, for amusement or other entertainment, while believing we should be grateful for them not being obviously abusive.

When in reality, it was just another form of abuse.

Of scolding us for not being ‘kind’ and using the pronouns of a misogynistic abuser like Mulvaney, of telling women what womanhood is when framed by a male person who didn’t want to be the best male person they could be so they literally and figuratively forced their way into ‘womanhood’, as a start. But also exposing us, non-consensually, to their underlying and never acknowledged pleasure of our reactions. Such as our protestations, blunt rebuttals or through some posters providing that source of validation actively sought.

So no. Nothing new. Maybe we should set up the links to all the threads where this has been done before so that those who feel this visit contributed to their own understanding, understand that this is just a long line of the same old experience for us.

And I don’t believe the bar should be that women get abused so others can feel they have allowed posters like this to have a voice or to reach enlighten or whatever. That is just more of us being told to accept lower boundaries for our ‘own good’.

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces.

Its a such a bizarre statement. No progress has been made.

But his contribution does demonstrate tra behaviour. A thread to talk about a woman was me-railed by a man for no reason. The offer of debate - with a woman who isnt on mn, was rescinded almost immediately.

Nothing has change, but he asserts progress has been made. Given all he's managed to do is stop women talking about a womens rights activist and look at him instead, i can only assume that that is progress for him.

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces. I know this is still a sore point, but I think we've narrowed the gap a little on how to deal with that problem.

I guess it's down to you now to sell third spaces to r/MTF. Good luck, wait to hear.

I think, however, that it is time for AlphaTransWoman to undertake the traditional "flounce" and end her visit to Mumsnet. Unless anyone particularly wants her to stick around for longer.

Why are you referring to yourself in the third person? Is it because “I/me” is gender neutral and God forbid we think of you as a man?

I hope someone better comes along to represent us and open up better lines of communication.

There is no one better. There are no arguments. Your “feelings” and those of other transwomen do not and will never trump my right to single-sex women-only spaces.

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces.

Really? What progress was that, did I miss those posts? Unless you mean you’ll stay out of our spaces from now on - that’d be progress.

What happened between:

"Bring it on...

Her vs me.

Any debating rules acceptable if equally applied. Any questions accepted. Free speech within the rule of law.

Shall we do this?

...and:

flounce ?

Does "I'm really not ready to be an effective advocate for the transgender community because I'm still very messed up and confused about my own thinking. I hope someone better comes along to represent us and open up better lines of communication."

translate to

"I can't explain this batshit ideology any better than Freddy, please god get me outta here" ?

I think it does, and fair enough. Yes, some wires have got crossed. Do some thinking and talking, and then come back when you are ready to talk to women as humans rather than whatever it is you see us as, in your head.

The boot's on the neck whether it's placed there without asking, or whether it's preceded with an 'excuse me, would you mind rolling over so I can place my boot, ah yes, right there'.

Either way, it's your boot on our non consenting neck. Whether you're rude about it or polite, is a distinction without a difference.

Go well.

Yep progress made 0.
Women: stay out it is harmful to us if you don't.
Man: it makes me sad if I don't use women's spaces so I'm going to carry on.
Women: so no change then.
Man: Hey great progress today.

The only way to narrow the gap on single sex spaces is for men to keep out of them.

@BonfireLady
Yes, I got to the end of it. Thank you.

I think, however, that it is time for AlphaTransWoman to undertake the traditional "flounce" and end her visit to Mumsnet. Unless anyone particularly wants her to stick around for longer.

But I've got an awful lot out of the visit. Mostly the realisation that, despite my silly outburst about debating KJK, I'm really not ready to be an effective advocate for the transgender community because I'm still very messed up and confused about my own thinking. I hope someone better comes along to represent us and open up better lines of communication.

Having said that, I do think we've made some progress on things like single-sex spaces. I know this is still a sore point, but I think we've narrowed the gap a little on how to deal with that problem.

Meanwhile, I'll go away and ponder things. I think I need some therapy to try and disentangle some of the wires that have got crossed, or at least to be more aware of where the irrationalities are. Talking about these things here has been a useful starting point.

On the flip side, I do hope this has been of some benefit to you in understanding how at least some types of trans women think about the gender debate. I've tried not to be just another hostile TRA by being honest about my feelings, but maybe that wasn't always the constructive thing to do. Apologies if I've said things that have annoyed you, or even seemed offensive at times, but I do hope the overall benefit of raising understanding was worth it.

Thanks again,

Alpha😀

(PS - not sure why I picked such a daft name. I think I was trying to be ironic or something like that)

And it was amazing. Personally, I have to say I adore glinner

Bloody hell, that was an essay. Well done to anyone that got to the end of it
🤦‍♀️

Once people start peaking, it only goes in one direction.

One downside of of a KJK-type bluntness is that it may require a critical mass of people to already be past a certain point of peaking for it to be "palatable" at scale. Otherwise it risks coming across as heartless and insensitive, just like (the equally brilliant) Glinner can and unfortunately does at times. So many people know someone who is trans identifying now, or who is struggling with what gender identity means to them. Most people are kind and most people are still largely ignorant of the impact that gender identity belief is currently having in society, bar perhaps women's sport and the apparent "edge case" of Isla Bryson - that's part of the reason why Be Kind has been so successful - and it's a very British cultural trait for the underdog to be championed or defended. Anyone who is perceived to be vulnerable, who is on the receiving end of a KJK-style retort about gender identity, may well come across as being defacto "in the right" as far as majority public sympathy is concerned. A bit like Caster Semenya still does in the general public discourse.

One of the things I have enjoyed most about the FWR board in the last few days is two threads that I've been on where a self-described TRA has been actively engaged. In the year that I've been here, the nearest I've had to experiencing that previously is a poster who joined in the 3 "good faith" posts about 6 months ago but was an ally rather than a trans person. (Interestingly, by the end of the third thread in that series, this person seemed to possibly be on the start of their own peaking journey).

Alpha, I'm glad you've been actively joining in recently. I've also been (and remain) happy to take your gender dysphoria at face value. It's been great to see you stating that children are at risk from harm (in the "middle ground" thread) because they are being pulled in to believe that their bodies need "fixing". I hear similar from Debbie Hayton and Blaire White and I'm also really glad that they flag this, as they lend an important angle in helping to raise awareness of the dangers that children are facing. It's also been great to see you share thoughts around how third spaces might work and agreeing that it was important to keep Málaga Airport types out of women's spaces....

However....

As the next debate-style thread unfolded (the Helen Joyce live debate thread), it became increasingly clear that, the empathy didn't flow both ways. Yes, benefit of the doubt because of your self-stated neurodiversity can be extended to a point but the failure to acknowledge the irony of the distress that is caused by transwomen in women's spaces compared to the way you describe your own distress at the idea of being unable to enter the men's was held up in lights. One poster shared their traumatic experience of being sexually assaulted as a teen by a transwoman in the ladies', others shared about distress that their loved ones had in relation to men/transwomen and women's spaces. At no point did you truly acknowledge how they felt. Like many people who read that thread, I am also wondering how your transition affected your wife. I don't need the details about your personal relationship but there was never any true acknowledgement that continuing to use women's spaces where there were no alternatives was at least even as distressing for women as potentially your own distress. We got close-ish but never quite there. It was remarkably similar to how Debbie Hayton has moved the line on this point in Debbie's own favour. Additionally, you used the word "submissive" to describe yourself several times, which was... interesting.

So back to this thread and KJK...

I note the gauntlet that @AlphaTransWoman has thrown down in this thread:

As a trans rights activist, I would be delighted for her to have as much airtime as possible. The more people hear her express her views, the better.

I love freedom of speech. It makes it a lot easier for people to figure out who the bad guys are.

Forgive my cynicism but I see no other possible motive here than game play.
I'm happy to hear an alternative explanation.
Yes, Alpha, I think you would get a full-on double-barrel onslaught from KJK if you debated her. Yes, if you played it right (I'd suggest fewer uses of the word "submissive" this time FYI.. that tends to raise flags that are barely less subtle than a poor choice of clothing in an IEA debate), you'd have some great footage to show just what a "meanie" she was in response to your dysphoria. Would that "prove" that she's one of the bad guys and you're one of the good?

Debate is always better than no debate. But equally, the "gentler voices" that hover towards the middle ground discussions still have their lines. And as many posters point out, most hard-line women have started off from a Be Kind angle. Just like KJK from the footage I linked in higher up the thread. The directness came from not being heard and from pushing back against manipulation and weasel words.

KJK remains a valuable voice in this whole arena. I still remain "in the middle" when it comes to engaging in discussion and I still remain sympathetic to anyone who experiences gender dysphoria. I don't believe in gender identity, that we have an innate gender that is separate from our sexed bodies, but I understand that some people do and that the distress that they feel is real. However, I remain grateful to women like KJK, and the strong voices on this board, that the line of NO is being held. Bluntly if necessary (but preferably not bluntly telling me I'm part of the problem with my "middle ground" engagement 😁).

I think KJK really gets peoples goat because she is "good at being a woman" in the hair, clothes and make-up sense but she is very bad at the 'be kind' bit. It's much easier to dismiss grey haired, unmade up, comfy trouser wearing women because hey they aren't real women. Kellie can't be dismissed as a bitter old hag that can't get laid.

Exactly this. I've said it before and I'll say it again, she reaches many women who may not realise what has been happening and speaks plainly about the issues. I think she's great.

As for Alpha, I personally don't need to be educated about someone being Trans. It's not your transness I'm bothered about. It's your maleness.

If you only understood me you'd do what I say.

There is no line going here that Cakelady hasn't blogged about for years.

Nrtft, but Alf keeps popping up in various threads. Obviously getting something from it. I don't like to think what though.

Should definitely call KJK's show 🍿

What happened to [and I quote]

'Her vs me.

Any debating rules acceptable if equally applied. Any questions accepted. Free speech within the rule of law.

Shall we do this?

So full of shite mate.

I've never been "very good at being a woman" if that means liking pink, relishing housework, being submissive and the rest of the stereotypes wheeled out by Alpha. But I am a woman.

I think KJK really gets peoples goat because she is "good at being a woman" in the hair, clothes and make-up sense but she is very bad at the 'be kind' bit. It's much easier to dismiss grey haired, unmade up, comfy trouser wearing women because hey they aren't real women. Kellie can't be dismissed as a bitter old hag that can't get laid.

I concur! That's all I say as I don't fancy getting told off twice in as many days by mnhq!

I suspect that most readers and posters now fully understand that we are presented with a male poster who really is the type of male that they sought to deny they are. There is nothing nuanced about it. It is full on and blatant by now.

And Kellie Jay would call it out bluntly. However, I suspect that humiliation is the desirable outcome for some people.

Im also conscious that I have been frank about my inner life and certain core beliefs that I hold. I did not do this to offend anyone but to help illustrate, as best I could, what it is like to suffer from severe gender dysphoria

Without wishing to be rude, I don't think you have gender dysphoria. Certainly not in the way I would consider it.

Your wish to be submissive, and the obvious enjoyment of promoting detrimental feminine stereotypes, does not indicate any kind of dysphoria to me.

Just my opinion, of course.

Yes, whatever gender dysphoria is, it has nothing in common with being the sex someone identifies with, at least going on the description we have been given by Alpha.

I knew a transwoman through another website, who announced they were transitioning with the expression “I’ve never been very good at being a man…” which seems to chime with what Aloha says.

But not being very good at being a man (however someone feels that is) DOES NOT mean they are automatically a woman (and I suspect the same applies to transmen.)

It’s ok to not live up to stereotypes- most of us don’t. How this ties in with changing the body- and what reasons people have for altering their physical appearance I don’t know, but it’s certainly nothing like growing up female 🤷‍♀️

This is very true. Every post is an education in how deeply entrenched and entwined gender is to stereotypes for some of these male people.

Oh for gods sake Here we centring a man , on a thread about a brilliant woman.
I went to a let woman speak event in the summer. It was lovely. Lots of nice women there, some still in the ‘be kind’ state of mind.

Some fully on board with women’s rights.

I got some leaflets that were being handed out, I wish I had some more, I left them in my duty free magazine in my holiday flight.
as with everything KJK says they were brusk and to the point, but they weren’t insulting.
Unfortunately mumsnet is a business so presume they have to be careful about the content they host.
Although mumsnet is fabulous for letting women speak to each other

Well Alph, you certainly made it very clear that a Man with gender Dysphoria and a Woman are nothing alike!