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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

KJK

687 replies

Notaflippinclue · 04/11/2023 22:14

Why the fuck has MUMSNET cancelled her

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Froodwithatowel · 06/11/2023 17:20

No one fails to appreciate how hard your situation is, Bonfire; and that of every other parent watching their child in this situation. There is however a very, very fine line indeed between having a reasonable debate, and feeding and encouraging a male who is enjoying the opportunity to use women. In this case, said male, who by now has beyond evidenced lack of good faith, was encouraged enough to march onto the one single support thread that exists for traumatised women to support each other, and further abuse them by trying to use them too to get more food via attention and interaction. With possibly a fond belief of being the answer to their prayers, but quite likely other beliefs and desires involved that those women really, really did not need to be re subjected to.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/11/2023 16:42

Please feel free to go through all of my comments on the two threads that I mentioned and pass on your feedback in relation to this.

What? You'll have to elaborate on what you mean, @BonfireLady, I'm sure none of us have time for guessing games.

I made a general comment here and was mostly referring to the officious intervention when Alpha posted on the trans widows thread, but yes for the record I do think you and other people on MN (my use of "many of them" in the bland comment you singled out should make it clear that it's not all about you) are really quite naive.

SidewaysOtter · 06/11/2023 16:20

What is the significance of having this conversation with you personally?

It's that we wims need to be educated and Alpha - with all the confidence and conviction that being male brings - has decided that he is the one to point out where we are going wrong.

Bless 'im.

BonfireLady · 06/11/2023 16:13

GailBlancheViola · 06/11/2023 13:45

I'm not sure I've seen anyone on here who has a "need to cling on to kindness". Or anyone who is enabling abuse. Can you elaborate?

Says the poster who fulsomely praised our Alpha visitor for being here, engaging on threads, etc. Try thinking about that and the Trans Widows who had the dubious pleasure of Alpha's intrusion onto their support thread @BonfireLady and maybe, just maybe, you'll understand.

OK..... sure.

And in return, please try thinking about parents like me who are faced with needing to take a "middle ground" approach with mental health and education institutions who have been trained to understand gender identity as a truth. Being able to listen, whilst also stating very clear red lines, is essential for what I am doing to support my daughter directly and to amplify that support to help others like her. If I don't listen to and engage in debate with those who hold a different belief to me, I won't be able to achieve this. I will simply be shut down as a problem.

It would never be appropriate for a transwoman to infiltrate a support thread for transwidows. I was unaware that this had happened (owing to the fact that I'm not a transwidow, so am not in the support group) and was referring solely to the two threads that I mentioned.

And from follow on comments.

I hope the middle grounders/be kinders/tone policers/word policers/mind our languagers will take note,

I doubt they will as they are equally as awash with self righteousness as was our Alpha visitor.

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but as someone who has been accused of tone policing on multiple occasions by certain posters on different threads, despite me saying on multiple occasions that I value all voices and all styles (including that of KJK and Glinner), I'm afraid this feels somewhat ironic.

I think it goes beyond mere naivety for many of them.

Please feel free to go through all of my comments on the two threads that I mentioned and pass on your feedback in relation to this.

MavisMcMinty · 06/11/2023 14:21

Yes, and they completely missed the actual POINT of the seatbelt anecdote, and after tone policing everyone, they posted a long lesson on how to get your child to put/keep the seatbelt on.

GailBlancheViola · 06/11/2023 14:14

I saw that disgusting piece of tone policing Eresh, how low these women go (I am assuming it was a woman of course) in pandering to and trying to assuage men's feelings never ceases to amaze me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/11/2023 13:49

Try thinking about that and the Trans Widows who had the dubious pleasure of Alpha's intrusion onto their support thread

And there was some tone policing then, too, from someone who wasn't even a trans widow.

GailBlancheViola · 06/11/2023 13:45

I'm not sure I've seen anyone on here who has a "need to cling on to kindness". Or anyone who is enabling abuse. Can you elaborate?

Says the poster who fulsomely praised our Alpha visitor for being here, engaging on threads, etc. Try thinking about that and the Trans Widows who had the dubious pleasure of Alpha's intrusion onto their support thread @BonfireLady and maybe, just maybe, you'll understand.

floranginajelly · 06/11/2023 13:37

Boiledbeetle · 05/11/2023 00:26

Freedom of speech does allow us to see who the bad guys are!

The bad guys are the men who insist they are women, and tell us that they use women only spaces and despite being asked not to continue to use them.

The good guys stay out so that the bad guys stand out.

☝️

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/11/2023 13:34

I hope the middle grounders/be kinders/tone policers/word policers/mind our languagers will take note, I doubt they will as they are equally as awash with self righteousness as was our Alpha visitor.

I think it goes beyond mere naivety for many of them.

Froodwithatowel · 06/11/2023 13:25

It just showed there is nowhere this group of male people believe is an area where they shouldn’t go. The absolute male entitlement of traversing anywhere where there is no law, or a physical boundary to stop them, just because they can. Never once thinking of someone other than themselves.

And in the absolute, happy belief that now THEY have arrived, all the little wims can stop jabbering about unimportant stuff and revolve around talking about what that male wishes to discuss and accepting nicely like good girls what that male person tells them they must think and feel and do.

It's abuse. That person arrived and added their abuse to abused women. Who thank God are some of the toughest women you could hope to meet and were having none of it, but that tells you all you need to know about the utter arrogance, the narcissism, the absolute inability to see women as human or even as something other than a resource to use.

'Middle ground' with that? Mutual understanding with that? Are you joking? Fgs read some bloody Lundy Bancroft and get a grip. There's a reason abused women are not made to mediate with their abusers. It's just an avenue to crack on with the abuse. Reasonability takes two parties with the capacity - not just identifying as having the capacity.

Froodwithatowel · 06/11/2023 13:19

Bloody hell.

Who IS this person who apparently speaks for All Trans People (And All Women Too) and has been sent from on high to apparently fix things for all of us? What organisations are you representing? What laws do you have influence on? What is the significance of having this conversation with you personally?

Other than what it very, very obvious as to what you personally get out of it?

Yes, 'understanding' has certainly been increased, particularly in women here who haven't seen this very special dance before. It is not however the kind of 'understanding' you think it is, believe me.

Get men out of women's spaces, end of. I don't care how those men feel or their inner selves or anything going on in their heads at all, they do not get to use women. If they don't want to use men's spaces that's a whole other problem for them to fix, it's nothing to do with women. There is no amount of 'educating' or 'understanding' that will lead to me thinking yay bin women's equality, exclude loads of them, it'll make sad men happy and the world a better place!' because I'm not a male supremacist with a major problem with women and a belief that bad things are fine to enjoy yourself doing so long as you only do them to unfashionable and unpopular groups. Like women who don't revolve around a happy penis.

That's the end of my interest in the subject. I was interested once, but it's been beaten out of me by the realisation that self obsession does not need an audience.

GailBlancheViola · 06/11/2023 13:18

Helleofabore · 06/11/2023 05:33

Well, it finally sank in that plopping in to the support thread for transwidows was just yet another, while the worst, boundary that this male individual didn’t want to recognise. And that behaviour was vile and there was never any going back on it. Just like the barrister who I won’t name appearing on Sarah Summer’s support thread. There was no coming back from this weekend’s boundary breach.

It just showed there is nowhere this group of male people believe is an area where they shouldn’t go. The absolute male entitlement of traversing anywhere where there is no law, or a physical boundary to stop them, just because they can. Never once thinking of someone other than themselves.

The final parting post thought of believing that ‘progress’ was made was a thing of glory. The misogyny of telling us that they contributed in some way to positive understanding and progress when the reality is the only ‘progress’ was that more posters than before now can recognise the signs of misogyny and fetish than before.

But then I guess we all got a fresh exposure to the falsity of the ‘middle ground’ type of argument. That desperate grasp of ‘at least it is only when no other options are available’ from people needing to be seen as kind. When the truth is, it is not kind and never was.

Just one male entering a female single sex space impacts many women and girls. And sure, more posters got to see more of the lack of logic, and evidence, behind the emotionally manipulative ‘but it is unsafe for me in the male toilets’.

Nothing new really though.

A male person arrived, used women as a resource. This time for therapeutic value, for amusement or other entertainment, while believing we should be grateful for them not being obviously abusive.

When in reality, it was just another form of abuse.

Of scolding us for not being ‘kind’ and using the pronouns of a misogynistic abuser like Mulvaney, of telling women what womanhood is when framed by a male person who didn’t want to be the best male person they could be so they literally and figuratively forced their way into ‘womanhood’, as a start. But also exposing us, non-consensually, to their underlying and never acknowledged pleasure of our reactions. Such as our protestations, blunt rebuttals or through some posters providing that source of validation actively sought.

So no. Nothing new. Maybe we should set up the links to all the threads where this has been done before so that those who feel this visit contributed to their own understanding, understand that this is just a long line of the same old experience for us.

And I don’t believe the bar should be that women get abused so others can feel they have allowed posters like this to have a voice or to reach enlighten or whatever. That is just more of us being told to accept lower boundaries for our ‘own good’.

Excellent post Hellofabore, I particularly liked this bit:

So no. Nothing new. Maybe we should set up the links to all the threads where this has been done before so that those who feel this visit contributed to their own understanding, understand that this is just a long line of the same old experience for us.

And I don’t believe the bar should be that women get abused so others can feel they have allowed posters like this to have a voice or to reach enlighten or whatever. That is just more of us being told to accept lower boundaries for our ‘own good’.

I hope the middle grounders/be kinders/tone policers/word policers/mind our languagers will take note, I doubt they will as they are equally as awash with self righteousness as was our Alpha visitor.

SidewaysOtter · 06/11/2023 11:19

The final parting post thought of believing that ‘progress’ was made was a thing of glory.

I thought that was hilarious (along with them starting to refer to themselves in the third person). Alpha, you didn't change my mind one iota.

On the subject in hand, I don't agree with everything Posie says, but then I don't think I know anyone with whom I agree on everything. But she does a bloody brilliant job of getting the gender critical message across and her LWS events are great.

I suspect a lot of the hate she gets is for being everything a woman is supposed not to be: blunt, uncompromising and firmly standing her ground.

BonfireLady · 06/11/2023 11:14

And why should women have to go through this abusive process so others can feel like they have done the right thing? FFS. We cannot be fucking clearer in this board without being deleted or getting warning letters telling us we are now being watched, can we?

But we are supposed to do it apparently because others can’t recognise the abusiveness of the situation. All because someone’s need to cling to kindness while understanding abuse and the boundaries of others means these threads become a living analogy of the issue of boundary encroachment discussed - those who do it and those who enable it.

@Helleofabore I'm not sure I've seen anyone on here who has a "need to cling on to kindness". Or anyone who is enabling abuse. Can you elaborate?

catduckgoose · 06/11/2023 10:51

I think KJK got some stick from other GCs for criticising Islam as well. Which seemed odd to me. Like, it's fine for her to point out the inherent misogyny of the transactivist movement, but not the misogyny that Islam is built upon? Double standards.

teawamutu · 06/11/2023 09:13

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 06/11/2023 00:05

Yep progress made 0.
Women: stay out it is harmful to us if you don't.
Man: it makes me sad if I don't use women's spaces so I'm going to carry on.
Women: so no change then.
Man: Hey great progress today.

<chef's kiss>

Helleofabore · 06/11/2023 08:24

And of course while should be without.

Helleofabore · 06/11/2023 07:41

Datun · 06/11/2023 07:02

Helle, I'm forcibly reminded of that poster called ATransMum or similar. Do you remember him?

Finally, after hundreds of posts, he admitted the existence of fetishists but claimed that he didn't want to be in the presence of 'pervs' (actually I think he said 'perved on') any more than we did.

But, nonetheless, the only way he could feel 'vibrant' was in women's clothes.

Yes Datun.

But there are so many in the past. And why should women have to go through this abusive process so others can feel like they have done the right thing? FFS. We cannot be fucking clearer in this board without being deleted or getting warning letters telling us we are now being watched, can we?

But we are supposed to do it apparently because others can’t recognise the abusiveness of the situation. All because someone’s need to cling to kindness while understanding abuse and the boundaries of others means these threads become a living analogy of the issue of boundary encroachment discussed - those who do it and those who enable it.

Syrupycake · 06/11/2023 07:23

Well KJK shows us what they’re like even when she’s banned.

BezMills · 06/11/2023 07:21

Not Any Real Concern. Self-obsessed, Ulterior Persistent Posting Like Yesterday.

AlisonDonut · 06/11/2023 07:15

I mean, we totally understood men getting into women's spaces long, long before a man came here telling us why he wants to get into women's spaces.

Well, I did. Decades ago. No man coming in to explain in even more excruciatingly narcissistic detail will ever shift my perspective.

BezMills · 06/11/2023 07:15

That KJK though, what a legend amirite?

Datun · 06/11/2023 07:05

Apologies if I've said things that have annoyed you, or even seemed offensive at times, but I do hope the overall benefit of raising understanding was worth it.

Totally. 😄

Datun · 06/11/2023 07:02

Helle, I'm forcibly reminded of that poster called ATransMum or similar. Do you remember him?

Finally, after hundreds of posts, he admitted the existence of fetishists but claimed that he didn't want to be in the presence of 'pervs' (actually I think he said 'perved on') any more than we did.

But, nonetheless, the only way he could feel 'vibrant' was in women's clothes.