KJK

Bonfire, gently and with sympathy, you were hoovered. Successfully. And used.

And you still cannot see that your reasonable engagement and being nice was what facilitated an abuser to a) have a lovely time using women, many of whom had seen through him but was still getting lots of nice bait from you to keep on chatting and building up/honing practice as pp said

and b) to then go and start using a group of women who have been through enough and had to endure an abuser turning up in the expectation of being able to play his games on them, and finding someone who'd feed him along while he got out of it what he wanted.

You enabled him to abuse other women. You prevented other women being successful in holding boundaries because you wanted to be nice and reasonable and in essence his behaviours worked really well on you .

We've all been there. We've all been through it. We've all thought our eyes were opened and then had them opened all over again, no one blames you for being sucked in.

Here is another reason why pronouns usage is so harmful, I mean, excluding the scolding admonishment opportunity it gave misogynistic male posters that is.

https://twitter.com/Lea_Christina4/status/1721758084803019058

"BREAKING:
I now face a 2-year ban by the CPU for speaking publicly about the unfairness of biological males being allowed to taunt female competitors & loot their winnings.

Apparently, I have failed in my gender-role duties as “supporting actress” in the horror show that is my #sport right now.

Naturally, the CPU deemed MY written (private) complaint of the male bullying to be “frivolous and vexatious.”

In her interview with Piers Morgan, she stated that her sporting federation in Canada had a policy stating that it was preferable to use preferred pronouns. She seems to have been banned for calling a male a 'biological male' and complaining that they should not be in the sport.

https://twitter.com/Lea_Christina4/status/1708937443976618069 (here is the interview from October 2023)

I don't believe that you can pick and choose who you use pronouns with unless under pressure of being forced to under sanction. Being banned for referring to a male athlete as a male athlete and complaining about them being in the female category is sinister.

What is worse is when women mistake the enjoyment of arousing boundary violations as a desire for debate even when repeatedly warned.

It's kind of tragic and pathetic how men like Alpha Golf Papa don't realise how predictable and unoriginal they are.

I'm pretty shocked that anyone who isn't a transwidow would join the conversation - unless it was completely to listen and ask to understand. Never to share their own thoughts. Particularly so if they had (presumably) put someone in this situation.

You see I'm not shocked at all. Annoyed yes, but not shocked. It's a predictable escalation when somebody like Alpha has been encouraged by all the other engagement on the board.

Can I ask you, do you genuinely think that alpha was here to learn, and that any part of him left thinking that maybe he's wrong.

I have no idea. I was reminded very much of a confused detransitioner on the Netflix documentary Regretters. He was a heterosexual man who transitioned to try and love himself better but ultimately couldn't stop seeing women as a cloak to wear. Whilst I hope for his sake (and Alpha's too) that he wanted psychological help to process his thoughts around why he felt like a woman and what any of that really means, I'm not at all emotionally invested in the outcome. Unless I know the person directly, all of my sympathies lie with those who are impacted. I do know some transwomen from work and even then, any sympathy I might feel would be limited to the direct effect on their mental health if they thought/realised that they had made a mistake and had made irreversible decisions about their bodies. I have zero sympathy when it comes to crossing boundaries or compelling belief.

Or did his final act of intruding on the transwidows threads help you to see him in a different light?

More of the same light really, but I guess yes because I'm pretty shocked that anyone who isn't a transwidow would join the conversation - unless it was completely to listen and ask to understand. Never to share their own thoughts. Particularly so if they had (presumably) put someone in this situation.

Scrolled back up as I had missed this one. I too have been dipping in and out.

This all makes a lot of sense.

I use the word debate simply to refer to conversations with different viewpoints. The counter to the No Debate crowd.

Crossing over in the a transwidows support thread is shocking. Given Alpha obviously shared about the fact that Alpha has/had a wife (I saw comments on this in another thread), it's not too disimilar from a rapist entering a conversation in a support group in a rape crisis centre and offering their viewpoint. It's equally shocking that anyone would defend someone's right to be there. Being on self-labelled middle ground (or similar) threads or a thread about a debate is very different.

I still don't get it.

Despite acknowledging that the women here know more about this than you, especially those who have been married to these men for decades and have even set up a collective to support one another, you say:

But the alternative to debate is no debate. In the spirit of preferring the latter, I chose to take Alpha's engagement at face value.

And then still reiterate

And finally, I HUGELY value the collective wisdom and experience of the women on this board (and that of KJK) and have said so many times.

It really feels as though you know, logically that everyone is right, and so you will agree about women spaces, etc, but there is still a core part that can't quite believe the motive of these men.

Even though Alpha was so overt and blatant. All the 'submissiveness, and women are fluffy and helpless and obviously I don't want to say it, but if pushed, absolutely I'm gonna do what I want, when I want, whatever you say.'

Anything that looks less like debate, is difficult to imagine.

Can I ask you, do you genuinely think that alpha was here to learn, and that any part of him left thinking that maybe he's wrong.

Or did his final act of intruding on the transwidows threads help you to see him in a different light?

His final act.

After all the debate, compromise, moderation, and concessions were heard.

Excellent song about a midlife crisis. With an appropriate name. But the the connection is tangential. Just an excuse to have a listen. Paul Simon remains unsullied 😊

I am very glad that there are people here who hold this line firmly. But listening to someone is not the same as pandering to them.

In my own situation, were I to tell my 14 year old daughter what is suggested above, she would cut me off. Instead, I am slowly and carefully exploring what gender identity means to her and the difference between sex (boliology) and gender (belief) - from her perspective as an adolescent, autistic girl who hates her body, is distressed by the changes to it and is constantly bombarded by messaging in the public discourse outside of my control that she might be "in the wrong body".

We take the conversation very slowly because she often sees me as a transphobe, when we touch on various aspects of the subject. It is important to me that I seek to understand this whole topic from as many different angles as possible. That's why I'm here on this board.

Whilst the flying monkey information was incredibly interesting and insightful (I've never seen it before), I find it interesting in relation to my own natural "inner chimp" leaning, which is is to not to be sociotropic at all. As I have grown older I've learned the value in seeking opinions other than my own (I used to be very single minded until probably my 40s), but this is never to people please.

I don't believe in gender identity. She is aware of this and some of my reasoning for this. She doesn't really want to any talk about gender identity - she gets angry when this comes up or we get near to it - so this is a slow conversation and we mostly focus on her distress about the changes that she is experiencing in puberty. She is far more open with me than I would ever have imagined. We are currently caught in a waiting pattern between the counseling and psychiatry layers within CAMHS and in tandem, I am trying to find private psychiatric support which does not involve the gender identity bias. So far, no joy on that. Thankfully she shares what she comes across with me - she's very concerned about women's sports and has also told me that she thinks a trans parent that she has seen on YouTube is abusive for "forcing their child to transition". I'll never tell her what she needs to think. Instead, I will continue to listen to her and provide guidance in critical thinking.

I am doing this whilst I continue to inform myself about gender identity through as many different routes as I can. Including... to bring it back to the thread... what KJK brings to the table.

Don't sully Paul Simon!

Some geezer's midlife crisis ain't no 'alpha'

One of the issues is men deciding to make any womans space a platform for debate, or any womans spaces a place where women have to justify having the space in the first place.

A feminist discussions board, and a trans widows thread don't exist to justify feminism or the feeling and experiences of women. But men dont want to accept this.

This.

One of the issues is men deciding to make any womans space a platform for debate, or any womans spaces a place where women have to justify having the space in the first place.

A feminist discussions board, and a trans widows thread don't exist to justify feminism or the feeling and experiences of women. But men dont want to accept this.

If men want to find a middle ground, i suggest that they open up their forums and chat rooms to us. Or create new spaced, but TRA already shut down a reddit sub dedicated to debate.

As they dont allow debate in their spaces, and dont allow neutral spaces to exist, i doubt that their wish to debate here is a genuine desire to learn or even find compromise. Its just a way to distribute womens talking and sharing experiences.

Presumably it doesn't involve being made to understand that there's a time and a place for all things, including challenging suspected prejudice.

Such a clear example of "A little learning is a dangerous thing".

I'm curious as to what this "CAB training" consists of and the level of certification involved.

That was jaw droppingly awful. You handled both posters exceptionally well Tinsel but you are correct you shouldn't have to, common decency from both of them would prevented you having to do so but they clearly don't possess that trait.

And I am still flabbergasted that somebody's "CAB training" apparently means they have to go on a victims support thread and shill for perpetrators. I wonder if they go into their local refuge and tell women to let other men slap them lightly for the greater good?

Hopefully I do some good by modelling boundaries but I could do without having to.

Yes. This.

Very well put.

Someone mentioned above…At no point did I actively encourage anything.

There are posters who crave attention and don't need positive encouragement beyond engagement for permission to continue transgression, such as the intrusion onto the support thread.

Research indicates that community disruptors gain their power when people engage with them and they are awarded victim status by others who tone police others posters or raise the issue of virtual freedoms. They centre everything upon themselves rather than engaging in the ostensible topic.

There's a point at which women are supporting the ongoing abuse and trespass upon other women by men: Mary Daly termed this horizontal violence by patriarchal women.

PS: Just seen the flying monkey post that explains this in useful detail.

The trans rights activist movement is fuelled by both types of enabling. I would agree that many in group two are personality disordered in their own right. I would say many many women fall into group 1.

Well now... sociotropic would have described me up until my 40s. I learn something everyday on the internet. And that is my new word. Thank you Eresh.

And it is a very timely reminder.

Flying monkeys

A useful concept to explore on this thread, I think.

https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/types-of-flying-monkeys/?amp=1

The benevolent enabler
A benevolent flying monkey is someone with a sociotropic nature that makes them an easy target for manipulators. Sociotrophic individuals suffer from the so-called “disease to please,” which means that they tend to put the needs of others ahead of theirs.
Often they unwittingly aid and abet a narcissistic person’s campaign of emotional abuse because predatory manipulators are quick to sniff out a sociotropic person’s powerful longing for external validation.
Benevolent flying monkeys are not consciously trying to cause harm. A benevolent flying monkey is likely to have been subjected to the narcissistic person’s love-bombingng and gaslightingng tactics. They are usually acting in good faith based on the narcissist’s persuasive vilification of the person they’ve targeted for abuse.
The narcissistic person will have used the DARVOVO_ tactic to manipulate their perception of events and the people involved so much so that the benevolent flying monkey wrongly views the victim-survivor as the perpetrator of the abuse. Once the narcissistic person has effectively pulled the wool over this person’s eyes, they triangulate them into the conflict and with strong incentives to protect and “rescue” the narcissist.^

The malevolent enabler
A malevolent flying monkey is misanthropic in nature. They are bad faith actors who knowingly participate in narcissistic abuse because inflicting harm on others gives them a sense of power. Malevolent flying monkeys tend to identify with highly narcissistic people and NPDs because they are equally narcissistic in their own right. They usually share the same attitudes and beliefs and feel a sense of belonging in the narcissistic person or NPDs in-group.
Because a malevolent flying monkey is morally bankrupt, it doesn’t matter who is right or wrong. In fact, they are usually fully aware that an injustice is taking place. However, these types relish an opportunity to deny dignity and justice to someone who they feel is “not like them.”
Malevolent flying monkeys function as gatekeepers. Often they are foot soldiers of a larger system of oppressionon_, i.e. sexism, racism, etc. and they engage in the conflict for the sole purpose of protecting a hierarchy that serves them.^

How do narcissists recruit flying monkeys?
Narcissists successfully seduce flying monkeys into their ranks by appealing to their narcissism. Narcissism is an expression of self-idealization. It’s a trait that all human beings have to a greater or lesser extent.
Benevolent flying monkeys are generally prone to vulnerable or covert narcissism, while malevolent flying monkey’s narcissism is more like to show up as grandiose or overt narcissism.