KJK

I first found out about the dangers of trans ideology on mn about 10 years ago. In that time, we've had hundreds of discussions. We've been polite, tried to find compromise, used their preferred language. The threads have grown from a few users and taking weeks to fill up, to lots of users and just days to fill up.

And what have we achieve? Despite assurances of trans wings in prision, it took a media scandal of a rapist for them to actually do something. People had to say 'thats a man' about a rapist in a wig for the government to be shamed enough to do something.

Nothing gets done unless we call a man a man. If people find that too much to cope with, fine carry on not offending anyone. But they will not achieve anything.

*Datun" · Today 10:53

I'm going to hazard a guess that the main thing they suffer from is being fictional.

Oh, so blood relatives of Tatchell's dainty trans footballer friend, who's always getting bashed up by sturdy, brutish women...

Continuing to pretend that we can fix the problem of women's rights being dismissed, undermined, given away, disregarded while not upsetting people is just not accurate.

There are lots of people who are very invested in dismantling women's rights and boundaries.

They are going to be very upset at any deviation from submissive acquiescence, to put it mildly.

Giving decision makers the false idea that they can straddle some kind of fence is where we get Keir Starmer's sex fudge from.

Either men can access women's rights or they can't.

Either men can change sex or they can't.

Either we are allowed to name sex clearly or we aren't.

We are trying to effect change. You cannot do that without breaking out of the trap.

The trap is sexism.

Female socialisation and an expectation that women are second class, service humans, less important, and obliged to cater for/look after/be nice/be polite are all part of the box.

'the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house'

I would have made it much clearer WRT to what I felt had been positive from the middle ground and Helen Joyce threads.

I think that's the source of disagreement here, many women clearly didn't feel a male like Alpha being encouraged to derail threads to talk endlessly about Alpha's "needs" and how Alpha only used women's spaces "when actually necessary" was particularly positive. Not sure that's going to change, however you word it.

Did she actually directly verbatim say that to you? It doesn't sound like her.

If all we have is platitudes, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
That's why KJK and others with a similar style and reach are so important too.

KJK on Twitter 😁

And there are a few comments up above which (mostly indirectly) say the same.

I've taken on board the advice about enabling abuse. But equally, I'm not sure how many people who told me that I wasn't listening to this advice had actually read my interactions on the two threads that I was referring to in my post to Alpha (page 5 I think, of this thread). I've re-read what I wrote to Alpha on this thread and in hindsight, I would have made it much clearer WRT to what I felt had been positive from the middle ground and Helen Joyce threads. I can see how the ambiguity of the word "enjoy" really didn't help, for example.

It's like fucking Groundhog Day, Eresh.

I keep seeing Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men telling Tom Cruise to ask him nicely.

If people cannot cope with someone expressing themselves in a direct manner, using only the number of words necessary to make their point, not pandering, not being fluffy, not using submissive words, not pleading or weaselling then the problem lies with them not the person articulating themselves succinctly and clearly.

I'm not talking about calling MTF trans people he. I do and don't depending on the audience. I never use she though. On MN misgendering can get you sanctioned, so I'm careful to avoid using either. I also never use the term "trans woman/transwoman" unironically. Again there are ways to get around this, but we all have to do what we can, I fully appreciate that. I don't tell people what to do myself, I'm just saying that I do agree with Kellie that wrong sex pronouns and calling males a type of "woman" are part of the problem.

I agree that this is a fortunate position to be in.

Yes, that's why I specifically added that bit in, as a concession to you and other people who have reasons why they really cannot avoid them.

Who said you were 'part of the problem', Bon fire?

This is the key bit here (my italics):

FWIW I agree with Kellie that people who use preferred pronouns are part of the problem, unless they absolutely have to. I appreciate that some people need to on the occasions when they talk to their children or TRA colleagues or friends etc. But I think calling men she and "trans women" has led us to where we are now so I won't participate in it.

Luckily I don't need to.
I agree that this is a fortunate position to be in.

I also try to make sure I don't give mixed messages and I will continue to work on improving this. It's one of the reasons that I join in the discussions on here, so that I get challenged and have a chance to understand where what I'm saying doesn't make sense. This helps lots when I'm having these conversations in real life - where I'm discussing issues in meetings with health, education and other professionals, by helping me think about how to bring clarity in what I'm trying to say, knowing that I'm talking to a stakeholder group which has so many different viewpoints within it.

The point that many different approaches are needed is a good one, but again this discussion has been had many times.

Indeed. And yet I get told that I'm part of the problem when I take an approach that differs from KJK (I'm not referring to enabling abuse here - there is some really good and helpful info on this in this thread).

She's not going to stop what she's doing or change the way she does it.

Agreed. And I'm very glad that she won't.

I used to think KJK was far too blunt and aggressive, but given the stranglehold the ideology has on so much of public life, I now think she has been spot on since the start which how unequivocal she is, and I wish there had been more of us with her bravery saying no earlier on.

I am aware just how careful with language we have had to be on this board (I'm a relative newcomer) and I know if I were as blunt as Kellie-Jay at work I would be disciplined and probably sacked. But it is becoming easier to take a stand as more people realise just what is going on.

I think the TRAs hate that they can't intimidate her and also that she is gorgeous and feminine but so strong and confident. She is very good at getting her message across with a clear and simple slogan (not her videos, too many words and being distracted by the comments for me). Let Women Speak is genius - the response from the TRAs is screaming No - it sums it up so simply.

I'm not very eloquent today, apologies.

Yes, exactly. I remember how shocking it was to Adrian Harrop when KJK just simply said "I don't hate them, I just don't believe they are women" in the Sky TV debate. His face! He wasn't expecting it.

What platitudes will achieve is seen in the Labour Sex Fudge. It just means more palatable ways to frame the removal of women's rights.

And there is value in hearing someone say it, bluntly. Name the behaviour, tell you the other side, say what you currently wouldn't dare to.

In the early stages here I would hear women speak and flinch, be shocked at their bluntness and directness. But they opened my eyes not only to checking the facts of what they were saying - and they check out - but also my own socialisation and desire to be kind being weaponised against me. My own internalised sexism.

We desperately need the women who will just say it.

Sadly, these are the very people who are doing a great job as the enablers of gender identity being understood as a "truth" currently. So, as a collective they do have an impact.
It's being fed in to workplaces through HR, in to schools through teachers who believe that they are supporting children in the same way as they would be doing for a child who may grow up to be gay.
Until there is a critical mass of people who can see the harms that are being done, there is still value in what is essentially spoon-feeding.

As you learned on Twitter, @BonfireLady KJK takes no prisoners. You keep praising her for that, but you're giving mixed messages as you keep undermining it too. She's not going to stop what she's doing or change the way she does it. The point that many different approaches are needed is a good one, but again this discussion has been had many times.

FWIW I agree with Kellie that people who use preferred pronouns are part of the problem, unless they absolutely have to. I appreciate that some people need to on the occasions when they talk to their children or TRA colleagues or friends etc. But I think calling men she and "trans women" has led us to where we are now so I won't participate in it. Luckily I don't need to.

If women saying no is 'too harsh' for male ears then the issue is the male assumptions on their entitlement from women. Which is also the issue of men feeling entitled to trample on and exploit women and their resources freely in the seeking of their exploration of their special inner selves.

There will be some women (and men) who have only just started a peaking journey without even realising that they are on it, perhaps through finding out about Isla Bryson or thinking more about women's sports and fairness... who then hear something from KJK and feel very uncomfortable with the way that she is saying it. If you're early on in thinking about gender identity, or if you know people who are trans-identifying (as so many people do now), her messaging can sound like it's "too much" or "harsh".

Yes, we have had this discussion literally hundreds of times.

If someone will only apply critical thinking when it's spoon-fed to them in focus-group approved platitudes I wonder how much use they are actually going to be tbh.

Can't we stand up to men gently and nicely in ways that don't scare the horses?

Love, we tried all of that. Look back at the threads from 2014ish. Women have been doing all this crap and our rights have been steamrollered. A lot of the reason so much progress has been made is women's attempt to be nice and reasonable and the bigger person and win-win and compassionate......

It's been weaponised.

"I'll take Things That Didn't Happen for £100 please Bob"

I have no idea if anyone is still reading the thread for the original discussion topic.... On the off-chance that someone is:

Obviously this is a completely disingenuous response (although it's a refreshing change for someone to post openly that they have no intention of joining in a conversation and are simply there to throw in a grenade) and has been debunked perfectly above.

BUT.

There will be some women (and men) who have only just started a peaking journey without even realising that they are on it, perhaps through finding out about Isla Bryson or thinking more about women's sports and fairness... who then hear something from KJK and feel very uncomfortable with the way that she is saying it. If you're early on in thinking about gender identity, or if you know people who are trans-identifying (as so many people do now), her messaging can sound like it's "too much" or "harsh". This comes right back round to the point I raised in my first post on this thread, about different GC voices and styles working together being important, and that for some people KJK's delivery style doesn't work.

The public discourse does seem to be swinging slowly in favour of recognising the harms that are being done by gender identity belief but there is clearly still a very long way to go. Recognising the value in different voices and styles, from the KJK/Glinner end through to the more "measured/balanced" (obviously not to the point of enabling abuse - understood), working together...but in their own ways and in their own words... is critical IMO.

Anyway. I imagine this thread will continue to taper off in to salad leaves and bacon and I'll wonder why I bothered posting this comment.... 🥬🥓