Policing women’s clothes or reasonable expectation?

I shudder at the idea of rolling a school skirt up, as when I was at school, girls were routinely sexually harassed and assaulted in the dinner queue by boys trying to stick their hands up the skirt.

You see, I'm old enough to have had a really short uniform skirt because miniskirts were the fashion at the time and also not to have had to deal with that sort of treatment from the boys in our school.

Yes don't know how lucky you are until things get worse.

It is ironic but basically true that "Men don't have as many rules" but also "Men don't have nearly as much freedom".

women being sanctioned for not dressing according to a modesty principle dictated by others

If women/girls want to

• walk down the road with skirts so short you can see their knickers, is that ok? (I'm never in schools these days, but the only women I see doing this are teenage schoolgirls)
• go out shopping topless on a hot day, is that ok?
• how about completely naked at the local park?

Yes of course women dress according to "a modesty principle dictated by others" - or by their own reading of what is appropriate in society and a sense and sense of bodily privacy.

Men don't have as many rules, but maybe they just don't go out showing body parts in the way that women do. I'm yet to see a man/boy in shorts so short that they show his bum cheeks (top of underwear showing, yes, but not the bottom part). And if they take their tops off on hot days, they might get away with it in the street (to some tutting), but not at work in an office, or in a school, or in a pub, or many other places.

If anything girls need to be educated on rape stats, abuse stats, predatory men and red flags. Children are famously not very good at 'making judgements', hence parents and schools having responsibility for their wellbeing.

And as for 'policing' clothing. We don't allow children to put naked pictures on the net, either.

And I wish fewer parents had a 'shall I complain about this' response whenever their school does anything!

If you have a uniform then you enforce it. And it does inhibit girls to have to be careful about how they sit, walk and move.

Knee length is fine, how would you enforce anything higher?

This is what I always say to the kids at school when they're moaning on about uniform/jewellery/hair styles/piercings: do you there should be zero rules whatsoever? Should kids be allowed to come to school in their actual underwear, seeing as it "doesn't impact their learning"? And then basically everyone accepts there do need to be some rules. And then I explain that of course everyone draws their own line at slightly different point in the sand, and when they're out and about in their own time they are free to make that decision for themselves. But while they're in school, the school gets to draw the line.

And if that fails, I ask them how they'd feel if I (their overweight, middle aged teacher) wore the micro mini skirts and cropped tops that they're moaning about not being allowed to wear. And then they usually agree that that wouldn't be a good thing!

It is to avoid arguments of this type that some schools have said, "The whole bloody lot of you will wear trousers. Now sit down at your desks and shut up."

Personally I don't think young girls should be wearing micro minis to school at all and I think its a good thing if uniform rules prevent this and if it is enforced. Young girls going about in a very short skirt isn't feminist its a trend dictated by the patriarchy which seeks to objectify and sexualise women and girls from a young age. Knee length skirts or trousers should be fine to wear to school.

My view is that teenage girls need to be educated on the male gaze and feminism. And then left to make their own judgements. There is something very distasteful about the policing of women's clothing. The consequences are obviously different to women being beaten for not wearing a hijab in Iran but the basic principle is the same - women being sanctioned for not dressing according to a modesty principle dictated by others.

I shudder at the idea of rolling a school skirt up, as when I was at school, girls were routinely sexually harassed and assaulted in the dinner queue by boys trying to stick their hands up the skirt. A longer skirt helped to avoid that, firstly by making it physically more difficult and secondly, by not "implying" that you were "up for it". (NB I am NOT suggesting that girls and women who wear short skirts are "up for" anything! But that was the thinking back when I was a teenager! I find it quite shocking now).

On a seperate but connected note, I work part time at a state comprehensive which has a strict uniform policy. Girls can wear trousers, or a knee length skirt. Boys wear trousers - I've no idea what the school's response would be if a boy wanted to wear a skirt. There's a high proportion of students from a Pakistani background, and these girls usually wear trousers, but not always - some (including some in hijab) wear a skirt + thick tights. But it was the trousers that caused controversy in Summer, when all pupils were warned that if the trousers were too short, and flashing too much ankle/calf, they'd be censured! This affected both sexes pretty much equally, given that many of the older boys as well as the girls had adopted a pedal-pusher style.

I know this doesn't really add to the debate but it is another aspect of the argument.

Any additional rules load skirt lengths and designs with cultural (sexist) baggage that belongs to the viewer rather than the wearer.

Or, it protects girls from being oversexualised too young.

Why on earth are girls being made to wear tights in summer? That's still policing their bodies and clothes! 60 denier is thick as well!

Re state schools and restrictions - er, yes they do. Check statutory guidance on cost https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cost-of-school-uniforms/cost-of-school-uniforms (the other guidance is non-statutory so it's cost that the DfE have made compulsory)

@SorryAuntLydia you might want to look at the non-statutory guidance - it has to be non-discriminatory for all protected characteristics of the Equality Act so worth checking the school's policy against that... https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-uniform/school-uniforms

Mrs Faress an objectionable woman and teacher used to patrol the corridors of my school armed with a tape measure in the 1970s very early 80s to apprehend girls she thought were wearing skirts that were too short.

Anything higher than four inches above the knee was unsatisfactory in her eyes!

Of course some girls spent various parts of the day rolling up and rolling dow their skirts before and after an encounter with her!

Part of the problem here is the usual lack of thought/product for girls.

We wore skorts - those skirts with shorts built in. They really worked as they were COMFORTABLE!

The trousers on offer more often than not do not fit properly, waist to hip ratio being completely off. They also have really scratchy inseams - this has less impact on the boys because they have more hair!

At the Secondary attached to DS’ school, girls who wear dresses / skirts must wear opaque black tights both in the summer (40-60 dernier) and winter (100 dernier). So skirt length isn’t monitored. They did this because, as a private school, they’re trying to keep uniform costs down and as such encouraging parents not to buy new uniform every year if it isn’t required.

State Schools don’t have that restriction and parents buying new uniform several times a year is possibly how some make extra funds.

Worth looking at the replies to this tweet too
‘Rules about skirt length only serve to teach girls that their bodies are sexualised. Discuss.’
https://twitter.com/positivteacha/status/1537498620769058818?s=46&t=oVo2aZA4PeZ8f_80WXQe7g

I think it’s completely appropriate to enforce this. No uniform has any direct relevance to learning, but in general schools that have and enforce uniform policy do so because they think it fosters a culture of rigour/makes kids feel part of the institution/gives them something to rebel against/evens out differences between haves and have nots.

If you’re saying you don’t think policy should stipulate skirt length, I disagree. Although it’s not really done to talk about modesty, actually modesty norms are very important in our culture. It is not appropriate for kids to show their upper thighs or bums at school, same as for adults at work. And honestly if there is no rule about skirt length you will see bums. The exact wording of the rule is so that it is enforceable.

From a feminist pov I don’t think anything a girl/woman chooses to do is feminist. And children in particular need to be protected from cultural forces that push them towards sexualising themselves. In my view this is why school rules around modesty should be stricter than workplace rules: because children are less able to understand their ‘choices’ than adults.

Girls spend their entire lives from the age of about 10 being told that they are either too sexy or not sexy enough, too ugly or too pretty, too fat or too thin etc. All the pressure from outside school is to maximise your attractiveness by keeping your skirt short. The rule inside the school is to minimise it by keeping it long.

Ask yourself: why does the school forbid short skirts? What is the problem? What does it think is going to happen? Either they worry that a bunch of 14 year old girls are too sexually attractive - in which case those teachers should take a good hard look at themselves - or it's a completely arbitrary and pointless rule. Either way, they should find better things to do with their time.

As for people saying that the OP chose the school and should therefore adhere to whichever lunatic rules it imposes, don't be so ridiculous. Sometimes other schools aren't an option - too far away, too crap, too hard to get into. And most of the time they also have a stupid uniform rule, so it doesn't make a difference.

I think that girls can be disproportionately punished in school for not wearing the correct length skirts

when dd was at school she was told off a lot for wearing socks and tights with her skirts. She swapped to very tight trousers which broke the uniform rules and was never told off

a lot of the boys wore similar very tight trousers and were also never told off (they were for wearing white socks…that school had a real thing for socks 😶)

In some schools I've worked in that's how uniform checks were done in general. On entry to school students who weren't following uniform, for whatever reason are taken to one side, and expected to correct it. Taking names means that it's clear who the students are who repeatedly refuse to follow basic rules.

If a girl had her skirt rolled up, she'd be pulled up and told to sort it. If a boy walked in wearing a hoodie instead of a school jumper, he'd also be taken to one side.

The skirt issue is something no school can win. Without a simple rules, the dominant expectations from students becomes that girls wear skirts so short their bums are out (which is something valued by a patriarchal society that teaches girls they need to conform to what men and boys find attractive) and the pressure is reinforced on girls who don't want that. If you put a rule in place so that girls aren't wearing a male-gaze approved version of the uniform then you open yourself up to criticisms for holding a uniform rule because people will claim it's just chance that girls want to wear a uniform that's male gaze approved, it's empowering for them, who are school to tell them what to wear.

The first question I have would be if girls are able to wear trousers if they choose. As any action over skirts seems unreasonable if that option is not there.

I do think it affects learning in some way if girls with very short skirts sit differently (uncomfortably?) to preserve their modesty.

I think you should complain. Not sure if you have a DD or DS but how did they feel about it?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64743377
worth looking at this example and the reaction - the boys supported the girls.

look up Uniform Reform on twitter - they could help you formulate a complaint.

Meant to add - teenagers grow. A skirt that was long enough in September might not be later in the school year. Also, if you are tall in school, it can be tricky to get long enough clothes.

Fine to have a dress code (within reason) - but corralling girls into a corner? I bet girls are far more likely to be punished for uniform, too, which could be discrimination.

We've been rolling skirts up since the '60s or so. At one point in my secondary school time in the '80s, skirts were long enough, but too tight - pencil skirts you couldn't walk in. Teachers complained about those, too (and our uniform wasn't that strict.)

It doesn't matter how strict they are - for some, it will have been a badge of honour to be put in that group. Maybe they think if energies are going into skirts lengths, they won't be misbehaving in other ways.

I think it would be okay to send a general notice to parents about uniform policies. Then it would be okay to talk to individuals. But not penning them up in a corner like cattle.