Policing women’s clothes or reasonable expectation?

They're not allowed to run to class, but at break time yes.

What? You lost me here. Why can’t they run? To class, to sport, at lunchtime. Or is running and casual sport Ie not in your pe uniform just for boys past 12?
I support a useful length skirt to be functional and agree peer pressure is a thing.

I'm very anti-uniform so probably the wrong person to comment in any event. The US and the European continent manage perfectly well without it, and in some instances the achievement rates at these schools are measurably better than ours.

A better approach would simply be to have everyone wear jeans. At least this dispenses with this ridiculous hauling girls over the coals in relation to skirt length, or pulling out the fabric of trousers to see how far away it comes from the leg (do they do the same trick on boys who wear trousers to school?)

IMO it's a ridiculous waste of time. IMO schools have better things to be focusing on, like stamping out the endemic problem with bullying, for instance.

And it's okay to say 'well you signed up to it so you know The Rules!' Good luck with finding any school in Britain without a strident uniform policy. For some odd reason the British seem to have quite a hang-up about it.

Yet if the same girl were to be out in the world working she might find herself being told she was not professionally dressed for lack of make up.
I'm 51, and no one's said that to me so far. Good thing too. I'll start wearing make-up when all my male peers do.

" The difference being a work place would find themselves in court if they herded up all the female staff and separated them based on their clothing. The issue is not the school uniform policy, it’s how they’re treating the girls in order to police it."

THIS response is spot on. I wouldn't have bothered to ask on here and would have the complaint in already. Uniform policy, signed up or not they way the girls were being treated, herded into the playground at drop off in full view of parents and other students is a disgrace.

When I was at school shirts were supposed to be fully buttoned up. Boys would often wear 1, 2 or 3 buttons open. I couldn't imagine a situation where boys were stopped in the morning, blazers opened by teachers and how much chest was exposed checked.

There would be outcry and if letters were sent home they would be sent straight to the bin. No doubt parents would argue why was their time being wasted on something that was neither an educational or behavioural issue.

Girls on the other hand are supposed to put up with this and an inordinate amount of time is wasted worrying about petty uniform issues. We have to ask ourselves what is the purpose of some of the uniform policies when it comes to girls. What about no make up at 18 years of age? Yet if the same girl were to be out in the world working she might find herself being told she was not professionally dressed for lack of make up.

UK school uniform rules are batshit. However, if you're signed up to it, then you wear it correctly.

If you want to change it, do what we did and form a school council, and come up with a practical, accessible, alternative.

I don't think any uniform is really necessary for learning, plenty of countries manage fine without it. But if we're going to have uniform I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some degree of uniformity to it.

When i lived on the continent they pretty much self imposed uniform of jeans and t-shirts and hoodies. While in the UK we'd probably get some silliness initially just out of novelty value, I suspect if we ditched uniform people would quickly lose interest in what other people are wearing.

*I work in secondary schools. The skirts can be VERY short. Nobody really cares about knee length, but knee length is safe ground.

It is creepy for teachers to comment “your skirt is too short because I can see your bum”. Then teachers have then admitted to looking at her bum, and you can see the problem.

The policy of knee length leaves a bit of room for minor rebellion, and keeps the conversation comfortable for everyone. It is reasonable.*

This makes a great deal of sense. They do clearly need to give some leeway to tall thin girls and just had a growth spurt.

As you say the things I see some girls wearing are ridiculous. It's bought skirt in year 7 at above knee length because 'that's how everyone else has it', then didn't replace for four years. They're bursting out at the seams. The boys and girls wearing trousers don't expect to be in the same pair from year 7 to year 10.

The thing that is making the girls roll their skirts up is the fact that it is against the rules and is a minor act of rebellion. If as OP suggests, the rule was taken away, girls may well loose the desire to roll their skirt up.
My 3 DD's went to non uniform school. Never had any of this bollocks. Teachers just seem to get on with teaching. My girls wore jeans, leggings and joggers, shorts in summer.
I really object to the schools that insist on a particular supplier - great way to make girls feel shit about not being the right body shape.

I don’t have a problem with the rule. It’s necessary because girls like to roll their skirts up. I did too when I was at school. It then becomes competitive as to who can roll their up to the most mini length. You then have what I saw this morning - a girl on her way to school with a skirt so short I could see the bottom of her bum (she was wearing tights). It looked ridiculous and slightly concerning for her sake.

Saying on or below the knee is a simple, easy to remember rule. It’s not policing girls’ bodies, it’s just ensuring a uniform policy.

I mean where do you draw the line? What would you say if they turned up naked? We must respect their right to nudism?

Having a tall, slim child I do understand about waist vs length. Buying trousers can be an issue as they tend to fall down unless heavily adjusted! Clearly uniform suppliers need to provide for this situation. But there are things that can be done to take in a waist: adjusters, putting in elastic or even taking out a section. Most dry-cleaners will offer services of this kind.

However a lot of the skirts I see are 8-10 inches above the knee. I can see this as clear as day from across the road - as can any letch sitting in his car or van with a phone in his hand! That length didn’t happen because of overnight growth or because all those parents are each desperately trying to find a skirt that fits around their slim daughter’s waist. For most of those girls this is clearly a deliberate choice to not follow uniform rules. I don’t really understand why they do it but it is a rule like any other.

Parents should buy a skirt that is as close to the correct length as humanly possible.
Dispose of old skirts that are too short.
Let the school enforce the uniform rules and support them in doing so.
Ask school for uniform trousers and shorts.
Encourage girls to focus on learning, ambition and achievement.

The idea that skirts get this short through a growth spurt is just ludicrous. Buy a skirt that is below the knee at the beginning of the year and surely some growth will be accommodated.

This doesn't work in a school with a single uniform supplier as it often isn't possible to buy a skirt that is below or even on the knee and have it fit on the waist. As PPs have said - some schools insist on a single supplier who only offer a skirt that only comes in one length. So if you want to get a longer skirt the only option is to increase the waist size, which is no good for tall, thin girls. DDs uniform supplier has 3 skirt lengths, but in practice only 2 are available. Both were too short for DD, but luckily the school was pragmatic about it and didn't mind.

I attended two secondary schools with very different policies. In one, your bottom half was very lightly policed - as long as it was plain and in the right colour, it was fine. Some girls wore trousers, some wore mini skirts, some wore full length, and everything in between.
The other, had a skirt length policy (standard skirt from a particular shop and a max height above knee). But every single girl rolled their skirt up to make it much shorter.

So, at one, I had an ankle length skirt I was very happy and comfortable in.
At the other, I had a rolled up skirt I hated, and was constantly paranoid my underwear would be on show, but I couldn't drop it because I'd stand out and I'd have hated that even more.

As a result, I'd say having a school skirt length policy is actually counter productive!

If you've 'always' worn short skirts then I'm guessing you're happy with the shape/length of your legs. Plenty of teenage girls, for whatever reason, aren't.

The problem is loads of girls walk around with their school skirts rolled up so far you can see their arse cheeks. Thats not appropriate anywhere in public imo, unless in a club maybe, where you might expect risque clothing.

If a man or older boy was walking around showing arse cheeks there would be an outcry about him being a pervert/paedo/getting off on being shocking so it works both ways inmo.

A short skirt is not actually freedom.

I don’t have a daughter but have never really seen the issue with this rule. Some of the skirts I see on the school run are ridiculously short. Thigh length minis, fluttering around the hips, rather than any length remotely related to the knee. All the while, boys are walking around comfortably covered up in trousers.

The idea that skirts get this short through a growth spurt is just ludicrous. Buy a skirt that is below the knee at the beginning of the year and surely some growth will be accommodated. Trousers should be an option for everyone too.

Yes, uniform can be expensive but there are secondhand options. The parents of boys have to buy new trousers to accommodate growing, as they look ridiculous as soon as they get too short, so I don’t see the issue.

Girls are at school to learn, to develop their knowledge and talents to their fullest potential, not to express themselves through their clothing. Sure, some girls will still roll their skirts but both parents and schools should enforce the rules rather than complain about ‘policing’. Schools have to ‘police’ all kinds of things to make schools a safe place. Or offer trousers, again.

A greater issue surely is that when I tried to look up the Rugby School skirts mentioned above, Google came up with the ‘restricted images due to over 18 content’ warning - not good…

Here's another take:

No teen really chooses what thwy wantbto wear. The fashion industry chooses for them. No teen demands baggy trouser/skinny jeans/flares/stilletos/wedge heels when they are out of fashion.

Fashions roll round in circles but it is regularly the fashion for girls/women's tops to be tight/cropped/low-cut/ see-through, and for women's bottoms to be tight and short.

In my lifetime I dont ever remember a time when it was mainstram fadhionable for mens tops to be low-cut or cropped, or for men's shorts to be so short that you can see their butt-cheeks.

Why do you think that is? And how might it affect our approach to "just letting the girls wear what they want"?

The sexualization of women that results in them having to be covered completely is not so different than the sexualization of women that says they should wear their skirts short.

So I think OP you have it backwards.

Our society resolutely sexualizes women's clothing and presentation, and it tries to make the girls themselves internalize this, so we find that we have to push back against it. Schools insisting that uniforms are not overly sexualized is part of making schools into a place that is healthy for girls and young women.

Haven't read all the discussion, but if schools want to enforce skirt length, they need to provide more uniform skirt options than a single one from a single shop. DDs (girls) school specifies skirts from one shop which does skirts in 3 lengths, but only has the shorter two in stock. The long skirt is 'special order'. DD is 5'9" and last year I ordered the long skirt in November. I talked to the shop every month, but cancelled the order in April as it still hadn't been made. Luckily the school understood that there wasn't a lot I could do about it and said I could just buy any skirt that looked similar to the uniform one. But I know that not all schools are that pragmatic.

There needs to be some balance to it all. Schools want their pupils to look good and not overly subvert the uniform. Having a school skirt or trousers that can only come from the school shop/uniform supplier is a step too far. Stipulating a style or length is ok so long as it’s a widely available product. Leggings are not a substitute for school trousers. A jersey fabric tube skirt is definitely not a school skirt.

I’m not sure kids should get detention, parents should get a letter/email

I am a strict feminist and lectured my girls on how short skirts played into the patriarchy but they still rolled them up. The fear of not fitting in with the peer group (my dd suffered badly from bullying) was more powerful than me or the school leaders. I think schools should either introduce a choice of either trousers or ankle length maxi skirts (like the Rugby boarding school girls wear).

Men don't have as many rules, but maybe they just don't go out showing body parts in the way that women do. I'm yet to see a man/boy in shorts so short that they show his bum cheeks (top of underwear showing, yes, but not the bottom part). And if they take their tops off on hot days, they might get away with it in the street (to some tutting), but not at work in an office, or in a school, or in a pub, or many other places.

If (since) men are going around in public places sans shirt, they are in fact showing off more body parts than women do. I never see women shirtless on the street.

Tiny shorts are manufactured and sold to women, but not to men. The women aren't independently coming up with this idea. If you're a woman who wants shorts with a decent inseam so they cover most of your thigh and don't ride up to be right at the top of your thigh when sitting down, often you're going to struggle. Meanwhile, shorts for men are usually down to the knee or a 3/4 down the thigh. The length of short that's standard in menswear is rare in womenswear.

DD's school has just changed skirt policy from "reasonable, to be decided by staff" to a measurable length after literally describing the length of some skirts as "obscene" in a school letter. I feel very uncomfortable at the tone and the frothing over young girls' bodies.

Personally I think the minute you get the tape measure out and start talking about girls' thighs you have lost the argument, the high moral ground, the battle for hearts and minds etc. I grew up in a culture where school uniform doesn't exist and I somehow manage to dress appropriately every single day.