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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Triggernometry Day the Delusions Died

86 replies

RethinkingLife · 29/10/2023 11:38

It's in the context of the conflict in Middle East but it has wider key questions about philosophical perspectives on whether we can legislate or social policy our way out of conflicts or can only manage them.

I keep thinking about the political and philosophical perspectives. I've always hoped that conflict can be remediated away. I've often feared it can only be managed for limited periods of time over history and that Sowell is right, "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs".

I'm interested in this in the context of women's rights and living in a tolerant, pluralistic society despite inflammatory rhetoric from activists decrying a society in which people's values and human/civil rights are recognised as values and rights in a way that they aren't in many other countries.

I'm apprehensive about the increased likelihood of a desperate dystopia in which women will continue to be eradicated as a sex class and yet will mysteriously be allocated under-recognised caring responsibilities and lower pay.

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VIRAL SPEECH: The Day the Delusions Died by Konstantin Kisin

A lot of people woke up on October 7 as progressives and went to bed that night feeling like conservatives. What changed?https://www.thefp.com/p/the-day-the-...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?ab_channel=Triggernometry&v=uyW4SMK0Fpc

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Diggee · 30/10/2023 08:34

“That feels like a generalisation comparable to generalising about most people on a political spectrum. (This may be leftist optimism showing in my hope that most of us are essentially good despite my core beliefs being more in line with Sowell.)”

So what? morally we have been in a left wing paradigm since the boomer brats came of age and now the results of their self centred narcissism pretending to be good natured optimism are plain for all to see.

Do you think the current issues that are upsetting some feminists today came out of a centre left progressive incubator or did they just appear out of a vacuum?

The great David starkey one said that a prophet who fails at prophecy should be seem as what the are, a fraud. When leftists tell us that if we just do ABC then XYZ will be the outcome and society does ABC and ZYX doesn’t happen it means that they didn’t understand reality and were so out of touch with the real world that they couldn’t even get basic cause and effect right. they are almost always wrong.

Rudderneck · 29/10/2023 22:29

That is really interesting. Maybe not the most useful bit, but the comment at the end on how the word "woke" is used perhaps sheds some light on why people find it so descriptive/compelling.

RethinkingLife · 29/10/2023 21:05

The left aere usually always wrong, about pretty much everything. And they’re often deeply immoral people too.

That feels like a generalisation comparable to generalising about most people on a political spectrum. (This may be leftist optimism showing in my hope that most of us are essentially good despite my core beliefs being more in line with Sowell.)

I am feeling politically adrift. I'd welcome good critiques of Sowell's unconstrained vs constrained and whether there's a blend within categories of Left and Right.

The unconstrained vision[edit]Sowell argues that the unconstrained vision relies heavily on the belief that human nature is essentially good. Those with an unconstrained vision distrust decentralized processes and are impatient with large institutions and systemic processes that constrain human action. They believe there is an ideal solution to every problem, and that compromise is never acceptable. Collateral damage is merely the price of moving forward on the road to perfection. Sowell often refers to them as "the self anointed." Ultimately they believe that man is morally perfectible. Because of this, they believe that there exists some people who are further along the path of moral development, have overcome self-interest and are immune to the influence of power and therefore can act as surrogate decision-makers for the rest of society.

The constrained vision[edit]Sowell argues that the constrained vision relies heavily on the belief that human nature is essentially unchanging and that man is naturally inherently self-interested, regardless of the best intentions. Those with a constrained vision prefer the systematic processes of the rule of law and experience of tradition. Compromise is essential because there are no ideal solutions, only trade-offs. Those with a constrained vision favor empirical evidence and time-tested structures and processes over intervention and personal experience. Ultimately, the constrained vision demands checks and balances and refuses to accept that all people could put aside their innate self-interest.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Conflict_of_Visions

A Conflict of Visions - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Conflict_of_Visions

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ArthurbellaScott · 29/10/2023 17:40

What's Noam Chomaky saying these days? I know he's been denounced as tramsphobic.

Diggee · 29/10/2023 17:31

The left aere usually always wrong, about pretty much everything. And they’re often deeply immoral people too.

Most normal people tend to grow out of left wing delusions in their 20’s when reality hits them. The exception seems to be privileged and sheltered upper middle class people whose privilege seems to shelter them emu to keep their delusions going. Unfortunately these people are very influential which is why the country is so called woke. We need a proper right wing party not fake conservatives who are just more privileged liberals.

RethinkingLife · 29/10/2023 13:48

I'm pretty sure there are sensible criticisms to be made of the right/constrained position, but who is making them?

Yes. As the judge in Mr Miller’s case, Mr Justice Julian Knowles, expressed it: “In this country we have never had a Cheka, a Gestapo or a Stasi. We have never lived in an Orwellian society.”

In Scotland, I fear it's moving towards those very things as an aspiration, in the name of progression towards utopia.

I've never fully reconciled myself with what I learned from Giles Udy's Labour and the Gulag: Russia and the Seduction of the British Left.*

I, too, would welcome a thorough going critique of the constrained position.

In January 1930, the New Statesman reported that dekulakisation was a "cruel experiment" involving "imprisonment and execution." Over the next two years, 1.8 million kulaks were arrested and deported to the North. Some 240,000 died. By 1931, 60,000 Russians had been arrested on religious grounds and 5,000 shot. The exact numbers may not have been known in the West, but the basic facts of Soviet mass murder, disenfranchisement, and slave labour were available to any literate Briton by the end of the 1920s.

More than a million people in Europe took part in "Prayers for the Persecuted" in 1930, effectively a mass protest again Russian barbarism towards the clergy. The Soviets’ use of unpaid prison labour to produce timber in the unbearable conditions of northern Russia was well documented and led many countries to boycott Russian timber in the 1920s. British sailors travelling to northern Russia saw the conditions with their own eyes, and numerous stowaways and escapees were able to provide the grim details. The evidence was there for those who had eyes to see.

Not everybody did. Timber made in gulags was illegal under the Foreign Prison-Made Goods Act of 1897 and the Labour Party had taken a strong stand against "sweated goods" when they were in opposition in the mid-1920s. And yet the Labour Party did not ban it once they were in power (the Conservatives finally did so in 1933), and many on the British Left refused to accept the evidence of brutality, starvation, and mass shootings long after the evidence was overwhelming."

https://www.acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2017/11/03/book-review-labour-and-gulag-russia-and-seduction-british

Book review, 'Labour and the Gulag: Russia and the Seduction of the British Left'

Labour and the Gulag: Russia and the Seduction of the British Left. Giles Udy. London: Biteback Publishing, 2017. 688 pages. When was the date of guilty knowledge for defenders of Soviet communism? At what point did Western supporters of the regime cea...

https://www.acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2017/11/03/book-review-labour-and-gulag-russia-and-seduction-british

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ArthurbellaScott · 29/10/2023 13:30

(I want to believe in the centre ground, if not hopeful leftie politics.

But in order to do so, I need rigorous examination of both sides. I think there are various people making perceptive and useful comment on the failings and shortcomings of the left; who is doing this for the right?

Self justification and self righteousness are just not enough.)

ArthurbellaScott · 29/10/2023 13:28

I watched this and found Sobel's central assertion about left/right very interesting - unconstrained v constrained.

What I'd really like to read/hear is some rigorous criticism of the right's position.

The left only seems to work on the basis of ad homs and a general 'RSOH' principle.

I'm pretty sure there are sensible criticisms to be made of the right/constrained position, but who is making them?

RethinkingLife · 29/10/2023 12:25

Sexual violence is a familiar and abhorrent tactic in warfare amidst the general horrors.

My belief for the longer-term is that climate and displaced populations forced out by extreme weather and uninsurable habitation areas may well make a nonsense of human conflict.

But it feeds into my concerns for greater poverty, social tensions and instability that will disproportionately impact children and primary caregivers (women).

I hope for a progressive utopia. At my core, I believe in management and containment of conflict at best.

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PaperWalkAndTalk · 29/10/2023 11:44

A professor recently said that "Palestine is a trans rights issue", because everything always comes back to that.

Israel/Palestine seems to be more divisive than trans rights. But both issues now seem to excuse awful violence and sexual violence if you support the cause.

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