Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Triggernometry Day the Delusions Died

86 replies

RethinkingLife · 29/10/2023 11:38

It's in the context of the conflict in Middle East but it has wider key questions about philosophical perspectives on whether we can legislate or social policy our way out of conflicts or can only manage them.

I keep thinking about the political and philosophical perspectives. I've always hoped that conflict can be remediated away. I've often feared it can only be managed for limited periods of time over history and that Sowell is right, "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs".

I'm interested in this in the context of women's rights and living in a tolerant, pluralistic society despite inflammatory rhetoric from activists decrying a society in which people's values and human/civil rights are recognised as values and rights in a way that they aren't in many other countries.

I'm apprehensive about the increased likelihood of a desperate dystopia in which women will continue to be eradicated as a sex class and yet will mysteriously be allocated under-recognised caring responsibilities and lower pay.

y

VIRAL SPEECH: The Day the Delusions Died by Konstantin Kisin

A lot of people woke up on October 7 as progressives and went to bed that night feeling like conservatives. What changed?https://www.thefp.com/p/the-day-the-...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?ab_channel=Triggernometry&v=uyW4SMK0Fpc

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
EmmaEmerald · 01/11/2023 20:27

@RethinkingLife ”I've never fully reconciled myself with what I learned from Giles Udy's Labour and the Gulag: Russia and the Seduction of the British Left.*”

what do you mean by this please?

Freedia · 01/11/2023 20:23

It’s not a smear to say that the voters are drawn from a similar voting pool as most BNP voters probably weren’t national socialists either.

But it absolutely is a smear against every member of UKIP to say their party is like the BNP (BNP with an O’level was how they put it).

Now stop whinging about so called ‘TERFs’ smeared as far right and address your own shitty behaviour. When your own shitty behaviour stops I might have some sympathy.

Signalbox · 01/11/2023 20:19

ArthurbellaScott · 29/10/2023 17:40

What's Noam Chomaky saying these days? I know he's been denounced as tramsphobic.

Has he? The only interview I've seen where he was directly asked about the trans issue he very deftly swerved the question entirely. I got the impression he knows it's a minefield and he's not particularly interested in getting involved.

AdamRyan · 01/11/2023 20:03

Freedia · 01/11/2023 19:00

OK well if you’re going to throw around smears like that you have no right to complain when feminists are labelled far right.

The ideology of the BNP and UKIP are not the same at all. Farage and Tice are nothing like Nick Griffin or Jonathan Bowden, they have totally different beliefs. If you knew anything about political ideologies you would know that, instead you just chosen to smear. If you are a smear merchant don’t complain if some else does that to you.

"We are saying to BNP voters, if you are voting BNP because you are frustrated, upset with the change in your community, but you are doing it holding your nose, because you don't agree with their racist agenda, come and vote for us [UKIP]."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/14/bnp-ukip-voters-politics-immigration

In the past, UKIP distanced itself from the more radical BNP. Nevertheless, the parties mobilize from the same support base...Followers of both parties address the similar issues – immigration, Islam, populism, Euroscepticism – in their debates

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3371228

a large proportion of UKIP supporters have rather similar views to BNP supporters on issues related to race....Such findings mirror our own earlier findings that the parties were associated with the same policies in voters’ minds; that there was a strong correlation between respondents’ attitudes to the BNP and UKIP; and that there was further correlation between micro-local support for the two parties in London elections.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/moving-to-the-next-phase-of-the-british-far-right/

It is not a smear to say UKIP gave a more acceptable voting option to many BNP supporters. The increase in UKIPs vote base effectively spelt the end of the BNP.

What's the difference between BNP and Ukip voters? | Robert Ford and Matthew Goodwin

Robert Ford and Matthew Goodwin: Both groups share the same concerns, are disaffected by politics and anxious about immigration, but there the similarities end

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/14/bnp-ukip-voters-politics-immigration

Freedia · 01/11/2023 19:00

Abhannmor · 30/10/2023 18:58

UKIP is just the BNP with an O level.

OK well if you’re going to throw around smears like that you have no right to complain when feminists are labelled far right.

The ideology of the BNP and UKIP are not the same at all. Farage and Tice are nothing like Nick Griffin or Jonathan Bowden, they have totally different beliefs. If you knew anything about political ideologies you would know that, instead you just chosen to smear. If you are a smear merchant don’t complain if some else does that to you.

Abhannmor · 30/10/2023 18:58

UKIP is just the BNP with an O level.

RethinkingLife · 30/10/2023 18:00

Diggee · 30/10/2023 15:14

Yes they are. It’s just that you might be a far left extremist? And if you are should be treated as such.

I recall being taken aback when a friend in the US described the NHS as a far left socialist system.

I'm with Stuart Hall: "The NHS is one of the most humanitarian acts that has ever been undertaken in peace time."

It'd be really amazing if this thread could hold back from making childish attacks on people from the 'other side'.

Agreed, I miss Bunbury's guidance at such times.

As much as I found food for thought in Masullo's argument for robust discussion in “Nasty Talk: Online Incivility and Public Debate,” she distinguishes between robustness that moves on discussion and the exchange of ideas and incivility that is

  • unhelpful to useful exploration of ideas
  • dampens rather than sparks interest in a range of contentious topics.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Online-Incivility-Public-Debate-Nasty-ebook/dp/B073CHFM2M

OP posts:
nepeta · 30/10/2023 16:45

Diggee · 30/10/2023 15:40

I am told that in American it’s often said that the right think the left are stupid but the left think that the right are evil.

I don’t know if many people really say that over there or not but it rings true based on what I hear in this country.

In this country I often hear right leaning people describe left leaning people as those with different opinions to themselves but I often hear leftists describe Tories as ‘scum’ and worse. Likewise I have heard of people on the right being denied promotion or employment due ‘values’ but I rarely hear of that happening to people on the left.

A few bad eggs in a rightwing party can also get an entire political party unfairly labelled as racist, but a few bad eggs in the Labour Party is unlikely to get the entire Labour Party smeared as a bunch of PIE sympathiers.

I really think the right need to wise up and start treating the left the way the left have treated them. People on the right tend to be better people though so treating vile leftists as they have treated them doesn’t come naturally to them. But I really think the right need to get past that and give themselves permission to treat leftists as leftists have treated them.

The American political system is very different, for all sorts of reasons, the meaning of being on the right differs from the UK meanings, too, partly, because religious fundamentalists are so much more important in the US (at least the Christian kind). The Democratic party has bits which are like the Tories in the UK, so direct comparisons can be quite tricky. The lobbying and funding systems also create differences which mean that both parties are dependent on corporate donations etc.

But yes, on some level what you say applies as a very first, crude approximation. The US began the process of creating political thought bubbles very early, with the radio propagandists and then Fox News, so what makes all this much more difficult is the lack of belief in the same facts across the aisle. It's difficult to debate when that is the case, as we are beginning to realise more widely with this new redefinition of words, the ability to create deepfake videos etc.

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 16:11

It'd be really amazing if this thread could hold back from making childish attacks on people from the 'other side'. Although I suppose the fact that it happens so much is in itself instructive.

Diggee · 30/10/2023 16:07

AdamRyan · 30/10/2023 14:59

Yeah it’s disgusting that so many in the Labour Party supported groups like PIE isn’t it? Yuck indeed. It’s just what the left does.

Diggee · 30/10/2023 15:40

I am told that in American it’s often said that the right think the left are stupid but the left think that the right are evil.

I don’t know if many people really say that over there or not but it rings true based on what I hear in this country.

In this country I often hear right leaning people describe left leaning people as those with different opinions to themselves but I often hear leftists describe Tories as ‘scum’ and worse. Likewise I have heard of people on the right being denied promotion or employment due ‘values’ but I rarely hear of that happening to people on the left.

A few bad eggs in a rightwing party can also get an entire political party unfairly labelled as racist, but a few bad eggs in the Labour Party is unlikely to get the entire Labour Party smeared as a bunch of PIE sympathiers.

I really think the right need to wise up and start treating the left the way the left have treated them. People on the right tend to be better people though so treating vile leftists as they have treated them doesn’t come naturally to them. But I really think the right need to get past that and give themselves permission to treat leftists as leftists have treated them.

Diggee · 30/10/2023 15:14

AdamRyan · 30/10/2023 14:31

AfD and UKIP are not moderate parties

Yes they are. It’s just that you might be a far left extremist? And if you are should be treated as such.

TripleDaisySummer · 30/10/2023 15:04

Most normal people tend to grow out of left wing delusions in their 20’s when reality hits them.

That may not be as true as it once was:

I'm not sure though that left and right are as meaningful labels as they once were.

Why Millennials aren't Getting more Conservative as they Get Older

TLDR Daily Briefing: https://youtube.com/tldrdailyConventional wisdom suggests that as you get older you get more conservative - it happened to our parents a...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixxeinSFfVE

AdamRyan · 30/10/2023 14:31

AfD and UKIP are not moderate parties

Diggee · 30/10/2023 14:12

Abhannmor · 30/10/2023 10:45

There is an argument or opinion at least , expressed by eg Danny Dorling , that Tories have moved to the far right because Labour have occupied their former territory.
I never thought of it that way but it was nice cuddly Cameron who took the party out of the moderate conservative European Peoples Party and into the far right group with AfD and other borderline racist and homophobic parties.

The German AfD are a very moderate party and not far right, same as UKIP and Reform U.K really, it’s just mostly sensible centrist police’s from these parties. The only reason they might seem far right is because all the mainstream parties are so called progressive and liberal and follow an immoral mentally demented agenda that doesn’t correspond with reality. Fortunately the times are changing and the next 30 years won’t look like the past 30 years once the political situation flips over the next decade or so.

Far right is what the old BNP were. Or the German NDP, that’s what the far right actually looks like and 20 years ago everyone would have known this and been able to distinguish clearly between the likes of UKIP and the BNP. It’s just the we are so far off centre people think far right is now the likes of the AfD or UKIP.

AdamRyan · 30/10/2023 11:43

It's probably my sloppy language - listen to the podcast, Harari is describing how he thinks the pace of change in the 21st century has made traditional "conservatism" impossible/irrelevant/out of touch and so the right has moved to being more populist and the left has been forced to uphold institutions which is a traditional conservative stance and not something left wing parties generally have the inclination and skills to do.

I found it very interesting and thought provoking about what's happening globally and to the political parties in this country.

Rudderneck · 30/10/2023 11:17

The idea that Johnson is "alt-right" seems pretty insane on the face of it?

Rudderneck · 30/10/2023 11:16

None of the governments of the UK in the past century have been either far right or far left. There has been some movement around a middle, by the various major parties. I don't think you can look just at the governments because in the end the political agenda and public discourse comes out of the different factions and viewpoints in the larger population.

So sometimes we can see two major approaches at the same time, often in tension with each other. (Which is not necessarily a bad thing at all.) And I would also say that there can be a difference which is dominant in which sector of life.

In terms of economics there has been a real narrowing of possibilities for parties, and indeed nations. Under a globalist economy, there are really only a few options. A lot can't really be controlled by any state, at most they can choose to opt into the global economic structures, or not. There can be advantages and disadvantages, but they aren't hugely different in the end, barring complete isolationism.

Within the nation there is more room for divergent approaches in terms of things like privatization, social programs, centralization vs distribution of power, collectivism vs communitarianism vs individualism, and so on.

Overall I think the British have a small-c conservative approach to governance, the whole structure of governance is built on that and it's been remarkably effective and stable and flexible, which is an unusual and good combination. I deliberation don't say "right wing" here because I think in fact that certain kinds of leftism are actually quite conservative in their approaches, emphasizing low level, grass roots community structures and institutions that act to enhance fairness and justice in society.

Or to put it another way, I think much of British leftism and conservatism are both inclined to a very communitarian impulse, which is not the same as the kind of socialist collectivism that you sometimes see on the left and which has dominated in some places, and it's not the same as the kind of right wing libertariansm that we tend to see come out of the US.

That right wing libertariansm and high level socialism both tend to morph into a kind of oligarchic control by elites combined with a high level of bureaucratic "expert" governance. Left wing elitism and id politics also fits in here. Neither are really liberal-democratic. The latter tends to be the servant of the former, often unwittingly, IMO.

Identity politics is its own thing in a way, but it has strong features of a kind of collective determisnism that is what Sowell calls "unconstrained".

ArthurbellaScott · 30/10/2023 11:14

AdamRyan · 30/10/2023 09:10

@ArthurbellaScott I found this podcast very interesting for the debate of Left v Right and particularly the recent move of the right to be alt-right via trump/Johnson

https://pod.link/1665265193

Thanks, will put it on my list, although I'm a bit allergic to podcasts! They don't seem to have transcripts, unfortunately.

Abhannmor · 30/10/2023 10:54

Diggee · 30/10/2023 08:34

“That feels like a generalisation comparable to generalising about most people on a political spectrum. (This may be leftist optimism showing in my hope that most of us are essentially good despite my core beliefs being more in line with Sowell.)”

So what? morally we have been in a left wing paradigm since the boomer brats came of age and now the results of their self centred narcissism pretending to be good natured optimism are plain for all to see.

Do you think the current issues that are upsetting some feminists today came out of a centre left progressive incubator or did they just appear out of a vacuum?

The great David starkey one said that a prophet who fails at prophecy should be seem as what the are, a fraud. When leftists tell us that if we just do ABC then XYZ will be the outcome and society does ABC and ZYX doesn’t happen it means that they didn’t understand reality and were so out of touch with the real world that they couldn’t even get basic cause and effect right. they are almost always wrong.

Ha very good! You mean like those silly lefties who kept telling us everything would be wonderful with privatisation. And when it isn't , they say ' we need an even less controlled market , we're just not doing it right! '

Oh wait....

Abhannmor · 30/10/2023 10:45

There is an argument or opinion at least , expressed by eg Danny Dorling , that Tories have moved to the far right because Labour have occupied their former territory.
I never thought of it that way but it was nice cuddly Cameron who took the party out of the moderate conservative European Peoples Party and into the far right group with AfD and other borderline racist and homophobic parties.

AdamRyan · 30/10/2023 09:07

Diggee · 30/10/2023 08:34

“That feels like a generalisation comparable to generalising about most people on a political spectrum. (This may be leftist optimism showing in my hope that most of us are essentially good despite my core beliefs being more in line with Sowell.)”

So what? morally we have been in a left wing paradigm since the boomer brats came of age and now the results of their self centred narcissism pretending to be good natured optimism are plain for all to see.

Do you think the current issues that are upsetting some feminists today came out of a centre left progressive incubator or did they just appear out of a vacuum?

The great David starkey one said that a prophet who fails at prophecy should be seem as what the are, a fraud. When leftists tell us that if we just do ABC then XYZ will be the outcome and society does ABC and ZYX doesn’t happen it means that they didn’t understand reality and were so out of touch with the real world that they couldn’t even get basic cause and effect right. they are almost always wrong.

Since ww2, the Conservatives have been in power for 55 years and Labour for 23.

13 years of that was New Labour which was unashamedly central and adopted many of the "constrained" choices outlined above.

I think the evidence is the "Boomer brats" were/are more right than left wing and we are not in a left wing paradigm.

Swipe left for the next trending thread