Triggernometry Day the Delusions Died

So basically everyone who doesn't have some kind of open view of immigration is far right, because surely if they don't they are just dog-whistling their race essentialism?

Come on.

As for British cultural symbols, maybe we could say double decker busses, telephone boxes, Jane Austen, Dr Who, the monarchy, tea, certain herealdic symbols? I am sure we could go on. And then we could also include Scottish or Welsh associations which for some reason no one find problematic for regular people to use and enjoy.

I meant as an example of a cultural symbol. I can't think of any British examples.

(As an aside I have no idea what a "British cultural symbol" would be. I can only think of national flags and the swastika as examples to be honest).

You view the swastika as a British cultural symbol?

Hmm. It starts to be splitting hairs though - "restrictive immigration policies" is often a more acceptable way of putting forward "race essentialism" (See Waters for UKIP). "National cultural symbols" as well are a way of visually demonstrating a belief that the indigenous population are somehow superior, another far right view. (As an aside I have no idea what a "British cultural symbol" would be. I can only think of national flags and the swastika as examples to be honest).

For me, parties that are able to convey "far right" values (race essentialism, ethno or religious nationalism in your words) in terms that are subtle enough to make them appear mainstream is an indicator the leader is clever, not moderate. Nigel Farage is very good at knowing where the socially acceptable line is and going right up to that line to appeal to those with far right sympathies. E.g. his "vote leave" poster with queues of brown immigrants, very reminiscent of Nazi Germany posters. That was not an accident. That was him intentionally appealing to a specific far right vote base.

On this thread, posters are trying to reframe "centre" to right wing and centre left to "extreme left" and dangerous in the same way as "far right". This is a similar tactic - try to make some quite far right values appear moderate and mainstream, try to smear those who point that out.

However I'm hoping some of the posters are from the US where the "reds under the bed"/fear of communists is much more embedded than in the UK and that message doesn't play as well in the UK.

There's nothing to say that any particular party has to have a far right or far left.

Usually far-right includes something like ethno-nationalism, or religious nationalism, or race essentialism.

But that doesn't just mean a party that has more restrictive immigration policies, or doesn't believe in open borders, or is ok with patriotism or national cultural symbols.

So are UKIP far right or not? I read stuff like this which makes me think they are.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-politics-election-waters-b2322607.html

What about reform?

If not, who are the UKs far right?

Centrist can be left or right as well. The Conservatives are mainly a pretty centrist party, and Labour has a strong centrist element, though also has a more pure leftist element. So, center left, and center right. There are of course a variety of individuals in each who may be more or less extreme.

I actually find it incredible how far things are distorted if a classic centrist like me is portrayed as "extreme left" and UKIP is "centrist".

Educate me then. What are some "far right" political parties? Why is it offensive to call UKIP/AFD far right? (By which I mean to the right of the Conservatives, the traditional right wing in the UK).

You must have missed this pist upthread
The German AfD are a very moderate party and not far right, same as UKIP and Reform U.K really, it’s just mostly sensible centrist police’s from these parties

AFD, UKIP are not centrist, moderate parties. Yet this poster was claiming they were and then called me a "left wing extremist" for pulling them up on it.

It was ridiculous. On this board I would think everyone knows that redefining words doesn't make them true.

Yep.

That's manifestly not true. No one has argued that they are not "right wing".

Do you not see that saying a group is right wing is different than saying they are far right, or alt-right?

Even if you think those groups are far right, by saying what you have, that people are disputing that they are right wing, you are showing either that, a) you are willing to twist what people say, or b) you actually can't differentiate between right wing, and far right.

And b is exactly what a lot of people are claiming is a serious problem for the left, so you've walked right into it.

That post was so ridiculous I couldn't even be bothered

"Far left extremist" for saying the AFD and UKIP are right wing

This thread is a very interesting illustration of some of the posters who hang out on the fringes of this board.

There is very limited critical thinking, lots of projection and straw manning and no desire to actually engage in a conversation. I'm pretty shocked by it tbh.

(and, of course, privilege)

I completely agree with your take on the left.

I really like Konstantin and love the clear way he conveys information.
I think he's too generous, though: I don't believe that most "progressives" are so because they believe mankind is capable of being better. I think it's one or a combination of tribalism, immaturity, fashion, nastiness, anti-social/insecure personalities and the odd useful idiot.

That's the same sort sighted thinking that has the progressive left creating such crap nonsense policy. Because they can no longer think clearly, their brains have melted from accepting their own rhetoric that was just intended to help them "win".

You are being very short-sighted.

Diggee · 30/10/2023 15:14

AfD and UKIP are not moderate parties Yes they are. It’s just that you might be a far left extremist? And if you are should be treated as such.

Really, if you think that they're moderate, then you must be fairly extreme.

What do you mean by "should be treated as such^ ? Do you think that people on the left should be excluded from certain jobs? Labelled traitors?

Aah a lovely grubby lefty bashing thread by some grim males with dodgy neo fasc politics . Lads are you here to give us a lecture? Any one who calls David fecking Starkey "great" (dead one or living one)is automatically a clown in my view. Now tiddle back to twitter .

I’m not interested in clever arguments or the moral high ground, I’m interested in my side winning politically and their side losing because that’s all they care about. You cannot engage in good faith rational debate with fundamentally bad actors. And the left are fundamentally bad actors. Look at the way they smear people even on this forum, they are bad faith actors.

I am not trying to persuade anyone on the left of anything, I have nothing to say to them and am not interested in hearing anything that they might want to say to me. I’m only interested in persuading politically active people on the right to start giving the left a taste of their own medicine within the bounds of the law. We must always stay within the bounds of the law or we are in trouble but apart from that holding the moral high ground doesn’t seem to count for much anymore, if it ever did. If holding the moral high ground and having the better arguments counted for anything the right would already be politically and culturally dominant but they’re not.

Look at what happened to some prominent feminists when they clearly had the moral high ground, conducted themselves well and tried to engage in rational respectful debate in good faith. Did that help them? Or did they just get smeared by bad people determined to ruin them?

Anyway we really need to talk about Labour’s past support for PIE and have a long discussion about how many Labour MPs, members and supporters probably still support these sorts of aims today.

I don't think giving the same treatment is a good approach tbh. Because what happens then, apart from losing your moral high-ground, is that your arguments begin to suffer.

I'm glad this is being discussed though. A few years ago, if you said you were worried about lefties forcing things on us for a "common good" you were ridiculed.

We had a lovely poster recently who was very honest that she had believed govt would have our best interests at heart and she asked genuine questions about why some of us were questioning certain things. It's nice to have an exchange where someone listens and admits there's a lot to learn.

Scotland and Wales certainly seem to be going down that road, but meglomania is the same whether it's left, right or centrist. The left have done some excellent PR and seem to know how to target idealists.

“I really think the right need to wise up and start treating the left the way the left have treated them. People on the right tend to be better people though so treating vile leftists as they have treated them doesn’t come naturally to them. But I really think the right need to get past that and give themselves permission to treat leftists as leftists have treated them.”

I think this is correct. If the left smear you as an ist or ism it’s no good pleading with them and begging like a dog not be called such a horrible thing, they will just keep repeating it until it sticks and enjoy seeing their opponent beg in the process. Much more effective to just give them the same treatment back. I think this is starting to happen In America, I’m seeing more and more people online calling leftists “groomers” and such like on social media. The only other effective way I can see to deal with a left wing smear merchant is to sue them.

@Rudderneck i saw that interview but there wasn’t anything new in it

always been anti communist though. Those students who idealise it are so mad and ignorant. Where do they get their information?!

leftism as caring for others? That’s a laugh.

Here is a very interesting interview with Udy.

It's kind of eye opening if you have been a sort of typical person on the left who thinks of leftism as mainly being about caring for others, and have had trouble understanding how gender ideology and it's more batshit outcomes have been embraced. Which has plagued a lot of people who have seen themselves as leftists and feel really politically disenfranchised.

What Udy's description shows is that the left, even in the UK, has always had an appetite to swallow cruelty if it is in support of their ideology. And that maybe some of these people's follies are baked into their beliefs rather than aberrations or errors.

It's a really interesting interview.

Labour are a deeply immoral party, it’s just a factual book that looks at a chapter in the party’s history when they were sympathetic to Stalinist Russia.

There are lots of dark bits in the Labour Party’s history. Like the time when many of them were sympathetic to PIE or most recently when they were riddled with anti-Semites.