Butches against transpohobia

@lifeturnsonadime Similar story here. My DD at 13/14 was adamant that TWAW and we had some disagreements about it at the time. For a while she said she was lesbian, then bisexual and then non-binary. We nodded along and said ‘ok sweetheart, thank you for telling us’. She’s 18 now and has changed her tune a fair bit. She no longer identified as NB, lesbian or bi. I’d say she’s still trying to sit in the middle ground, is very much ‘be kind’ and ‘live and let live’, has gay and lesbian friends as well as trans and NB friends.

But she is concerned about some of the trans and NB friends and their mental health and observes that many of the problems they had before are still present even after they have come out and been accepted warmly by their peers and families. She has noticed that these individuals seem to take up a lot of their friends’ time and attention and can make quite a lot of demands on others.

And she absolutely believes single sex spaces are necessary. I don’t know how she squares that with the behaviour of her trans friends who I am certain use spaces designed for the opposite sex. I doubt she would challenge it, unfortunately. Would probably just quietly feel uncomfortable and not mention it.

Those male hominids minded to have done that probably lost out on the 'survival of the fittest' who-ha millions of years ago.

No, Stephannee, in a generation the teenage and 20-something women and girls who identify as "cool girls" or "trans inclusive" or "non-binary" will have experienced pregnancy, childbirth, pregnancy-related discrimination in employment, been abandoned by the fathers of their children and been left literally holding the baby, had to foot 100% of the nursery bill for their preschoolers while their non paying ex lives the life of riley, waited years for a diagnosis of endometriosis or surgery to fix injuries sustained when giving birth, seen their careers stagnate due to child care responsibilities whilst their male partners or ex partners go chasing pay rises and promotions, been through the menopause and seen how society dismisses older women as irrelevant and past it.

The likelihood is that when these young girls and women have spent a few more decades actually living as a woman, they will start to understand why living as a woman is something no trans woman has ever done, that sex based oppression is not something you can identify out of, and that women's rights are not in fact as secure as they thought they were.

Then they'll be the new second wavers, and the next generation of young things will be telling them they don't know anything and their views are irrelevant because they've got one foot in the grave anyway.

This is deluded.

In 2 generations people will still know that men are not women and there are times when this is very important to keep women safe.

What percentage of the LGB-Alliance are actually LGB again? Oh yeah, 7%.

This has been roundly debunked several times over on this very thread. Please read before posting nonsense.

You know how we'll be able to tell that everyone sees transwomen as women?

When they're subject to the kind of casual yet pervasive ageism that is flung at any women presumed to be over 30 from conservatives and "progressives" alike.

Support for males in women's spaces has gone down in each consecutive YouGov survey (3 of them) in the last 5 years.

Everyone's opinion matters. My point is times are changing even though there still seems like there's a long way to go. The next generation will be different, go forward two generations and the forecast appears to say the "gender critical" movement just won't exist at all except a couple of lonely voices here and there. The UK and Ireland may one day catch up with the rest of W and Central Europe.

What percentage of the LGB-Alliance are actually LGB again? Oh yeah, 7%.

Which means in just one more generation there will be a huge change.

There won't, it's already becoming a bit passé. Most of the mostly privileged "non binary" students of today will get over themselves, stop pretending they don't have a sex and settle down into boring corporate roles and become consumed by talk of house prices.

I don't have the link handy but I saw an interesting article that first states over half of the population are against LGBT rights. But then it breaks it down by age which shows the vast majority are middle-aged and elderly, with all the younger generations supportive and becoming more and more supportive each generation.

Did they break it down to LGB and T rights? Because no-one I know gives a damn who you fancy/sleep with, but they do feel strongly that girls should be able to have single sex changing rooms (to pick a single example)

The number of male offenders who should be housed in women's prisons is zero, Stephannee.

And even if you accept that it should be decided on a case by case basis, which I don't, Isla Bryson was convicted of rape. Why did there even need to be a "decision" about where he would end up serving his sentence? The answer should have been bloody obvious.

Although we know where Nicola Sturgeon wanted him to be held, and it wasn't "in a men's prison, of course".

The view that you should only support the rights of particular groups because you are willing to date them is really quite repellent. Peoples' dating preferences are their own.

Absolutely. Nice straw man. The point here is that they don't actually see these males as women, dear @DadJoke, despite fervent claims to the contrary.

Yet many of the younger generation actually think 'trans rights' are a load of anti woman nonsense.

My DS and his friends don't believe that the teenager boys who wear girls clothes are really girls.

My teenage DD doesn't want to compete for places on teams in her chosen sport with trans girls. She doesn't want to share a bathroom or changing room with them either.

It's not hate to feel that way. It's just preservation of women's rights. Same with sexuality. Trans women who have sex with females are having heterosexual sex. They can consider it a queer relationship if they want but they are not lesbians.

https://lgballiance.org.uk/facts/

Christ, not the 6% thing again - they were being absolutely honest about what they could actually say from stats collected (yes, I know, revolutionary):

We used Mailchimp to send our newsletter and when we set up our account in 2019 we added some subscriber questions which, as it turned out, provided us with ambiguous data.
We asked people whether they were lesbian, whether they were lesbian/gay or if they preferred not to say. The flaws being that we couldn’t tell whether those who ticked lesbian/gay were men or women and that none of the fields were compulsory – so many people skipped them altogether.
The result was that we had 4,502 newsletter subscribers and 316 ticked the box describing themselves as lesbian. That’s 7% of the total. A further 949 ticked the box lesbian/gay and 1,427 were unspecified or preferred not to say. Based on that data that means that between 316 (7%) and 2,376 (53%) of our subscribers were lesbian.
The 7% figure was used in court because it’s important that evidence is based on provable fact and it is a fact that, at a minimum, 7% of our subscribers were lesbians. However, common sense told us that that number was really much higher.

So loads of people grasped onto that, because they're used to people lying about stats.

In August 2022 we commissioned a survey of our subscribers to help us plan to deliver services and support to LGB people. One of the questions we asked was about sexual orientation. That data showed that 34% are lesbian, 33% are gay men, 12% are bisexual, 20% are heterosexual and 1% preferred not to say. We are satisfied that this data is robust.

So there we go, when they did a better survey, they discovered 79% of their subscribers are LGB.

Ah more ageism! 'You're old and don't matter/ are stupid and young people are right'.

Bloody hell.

Darling, half of us here patiently trying to explain reality are LGB.

There really is zero point in this, I'm going to go and try teaching a pigeon to play chess.

ah another variation of “youre old and you’re going to die soon anyway” the right side of history showing as always that ageism is perfectly acceptable

The idea that they have been "pressurised" into this view suggests a very low opinion of lesbians

Not really. More that history has repeatedly shown that women (aka female humans) are socialised to be kind and to compromise.

Responded to and commented on already on the thread. I know, because I did it.

Why not respond to actual homosexual people explaining their thoughts and experiences to you than just repeatedly banging up the same tired attempt?

Is it that you can't engage or listen to anyone else?
Is it that you think if you bang up that silly bit of selected evidence long enough people will just shut up and surrender?
Are you hopeful you can disappear reality if you just shout 'I believe x' long enough?
What's going on in your head when you do this?

This.

In reality, lesbians are not being "presented with a penis". They are being presented with individuals who identify as lesbians when they are quite clearly male. This is going to happen, at the latest, the first moment they set eyes on the person from the lesbian dating app whose photos were heavily filtered and cropped to hide any sign of maleness. In many cases it will still be obvious from the pictures and they don't even need to meet that person.

This argument about "inspecting people's genitals" is so tedious.

The only time it would ever be even remotely necessary to expect someone's genitals would be if you decided to allow post op trans women only to use women's spaces. And since the idea of inspecting people's genitals is obviously a total non-starter, this is why it isn't practical to have an exemption allowing only people who have undergone gender reassignment surgery to use opposite sex toilets, because there is no way of checking this.

In around 99% of cases we can tell whether someone is male or female just by looking at their face, and in cases where there is any doubt in the matter, the person concerned knows full well whether they are male or female.

I don't have the link handy but I saw an interesting article that first states over half of the population are against LGBT rights. But then it breaks it down by age which shows the vast majority are middle-aged and elderly, with all the younger generations supportive and becoming more and more supportive each generation.

Which means in just one more generation there will be a huge change.

Thanks for proving the point.

If you'd read anything I'd posted on this thread so far you'd know I am myself homosexual. And would like to be allowed to be.

So no. Obviously not. Bit of a silly comment really.

Source for favourable views of transgender people by non-trans lesbians:
https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/45983-what-do-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-brito

Note non-trans lesbians have a more favourable view of transgender people than any other group. The idea that they have been "pressurised" into this view suggests a very low opinion of lesbians. Consider that it's the six percent who are the ones who have been radicalised. There is a reason that, under oath, the LGB Alliance admitted that only 6% of their supporters were lesbians.

The view that you should only support the rights of particular groups because you are willing to date them is really quite repellent. Peoples' dating preferences are their own. You can support marriage equality without wanting to marry someone of the same gender.

Finally, one of the arguments against gay marriage was that it destroyed the definition of marriage for straight fundie Christians, whereas it had no impact at all. The same argument applies to people who object to trans women who are lesbians.

Re the prison issue and IB, trans women aren't automatically put in a woman's prison it's decided on a case by case basis (as is what happened with IB).

She was being held in a woman's prison only while waiting for the decision where she would end up serving her time, in there she was in isolation and kept separate from the prison population. There was a lot of misleading articles on this which left these facts out.

Blimey. GC group-think response there. If you don't know, maybe have a quick Google and read some non-GC material about it. I am not here to educate you.

Fabulous. A "go educate yourself" response from a poster accusing others of group think.

As Helen Staniland says: Transactivism - a movement that fails to state what rights it's fighting for on the grounds that it may incriminate itself.

I suspect a childless male who identified as a mother would be more likely to be allowed to join than a childless female.