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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kew Gardens, yes, *Kew Gardens*, says plants have "gender" not "sex"

110 replies

MmePoppySeedDefage · 22/10/2023 18:54

I have been a member of Kew Gardens for a while. Every so often I get a magazine from them, and this unscientific bilge was in the latest edition. I've written and from the swift reply, obviously others have too. They mutter about fungus:

Thank you for your email. As part of Queer Nature, we explore how queer people find themselves in nature, and how a closer look at nature through a queer lens can challenge many pre-existing ideas about what is ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’.

While we recognise that human sexual identities cannot be applied to nature, we want to celebrate the fact that, as in humans, there is huge diversity in the natural world. Many plants and fungi have characteristics that do not fit within traditional forms of categorisation. Some examples include:
• Avocado - is one example of many plants which is fertilised when its own pollen finds its way from the stamens into the ovule, meaning it can ‘self-pollinate’
• Ruizia Mauritiana - found in the Temperate House at Kew, this plant can change the flowers it produces based on temperature
• Some citrus and many other flowering plants produce seeds by apomixis, they reproduce without fertilisation and, in effect, are asexual.

• Liverworts – these can reproduce asexually by means of gemmae, which means a single cell, or a mass of cells, or a modified bud of tissue, that detaches from the parent and develops into a new individual
• Fungi - Fungi don’t have what we would refer to as biological sexes at all. In human terms, they are also the ultimate pansexuals, engaging in sexual reproduction with any compatible member of their own species.
• The Splitgill mushroom (Schizophyllum commune) has been found to have more than 23,000 mating types.

Kew Gardens, yes, *Kew Gardens*, says plants have "gender" not "sex"
OP posts:
MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 10:06

Igneococcus · 24/10/2023 09:11

It reminds me of a comment in the Times a few weeks back, I'll try find it in a moment, that said the problem is the increase in "science-adjacent" staff and organizations.
In the 30+ years I've been in science now it sometimes seems to me that there's been a massive increase in science-adjacent staff in scientific institutions and I'm unconvinced that benefitted science.

What does "science-adjacent" mean?

Is it like "sanity-adjacent"?

CoalTit · 24/10/2023 09:59

@DiscoBeat

I think some plants do change though? Pretty sure I've heard that before. Like some animals as well.
I've been wanting to say this since Hadley Freedom mistakenly told Margaret Atwood that every living thing is either male or female:
Not all animals are mammals, but all humans are mammals. All mammals are dioecious.
Dioecious is taken from Greek and means, literally "two houses". A dioecious species is one where every individual is either male or female.
We used to reserve the word dioecious for dioecious plants because it didn't need explaining that every mammal is one sex or the other, whereas there are all sorts of reproductive strategies in the kingdom Plantae, in the rest of the kingdom Animalia, in the kingdom Fungi, and (here my knowledge of the subject ends) possibly in the kingdom Archaebacteria, Eubacteria and Protista.

Zeugma · 24/10/2023 09:31

This is indeed a dark day to see Kew not just drinking the KoolAid, but grabbing the bottle with both hands and glugging it at speed. Sadly though, let's not forget that both the British Library and the Royal Society (that was the one that did it for me - the Royal Society) got there before them.

And to think that recent thing about 'woke science' was greeted with such derision - it may have been clumsily expressed for political gain but let's face it, it wasn’t far wrong, was it?

Igneococcus · 24/10/2023 09:11

It reminds me of a comment in the Times a few weeks back, I'll try find it in a moment, that said the problem is the increase in "science-adjacent" staff and organizations.
In the 30+ years I've been in science now it sometimes seems to me that there's been a massive increase in science-adjacent staff in scientific institutions and I'm unconvinced that benefitted science.

Slothtoes · 24/10/2023 08:55

I bet some poor actual scientists at Kew were approached to provide these examples of "queer", bisexual, pansexual etc organisms and rolled their eyes but had to do it for fear of being ostracised.

^This. The fear and compulsion. The not listening to the factual objections of staff and many of the members of the public who will want to see accuracy from scientific institutions.

Inclusivity and accessibility of their public benefit is what they should be demonstrating, across all the protected characteristics. What a terrible, anti democratic, anti truth, corrupting statement it is, when authoritative organisations start to sell out their organisation’s own core values for a political position that doesn’t respect all human rights equally.

A venerable scientific institution promoting anti science politics in order to project human attributes or intentions on to plants, who most definitely do not share those, as all botanists and scientists know full well, shows a craven, poorly led, captured institution

How does all that make LGB botanists and scientists, and female botanists and scientists, or visitors to Kew, or future sponsors, feel?

Poorly led institutions who would sell out the whole institution’s values, in favour of placing specific sexist misogynist homophobic politics at an untouchable unquestionable elevation, by politically sanctifying, ‘gender identity’ which isn’t even a legally protected characteristic, show themselves to be adopting unfairness and irrationality as a core vale instead.

Do these bodies really want to be stating corporately that don’t consider everyone including women and LGB people to be equal, and that they don’t care about the consequences of that for the public, their employees and anyone else they deal with?

Doing that might get a few more ££££ in from the funders who want to support gender identity. But these captured institutions are risking many many more £££££ in lawsuits and financial losses if they follow the political logic all the way through and start acting outside the law. I just don’t know why bosses or trustees of public bodies like this are allowed to dabble in such risky and morally questionable politics?

LGB plantswomen and plantsmen in social history and today across the world as an exhibition theme, would be great.
Gender identity examples from plants or anthropomorphising human sexual orientations on to plants - it’s just nonsense that should never have got further than the desk of the corporate sponsorship manager.

SinnerBoy · 24/10/2023 06:20

Cailleach1 Yesterday 14:51

Some animals breath underwater. If you chuck someone into the sea and they drown, I'm sure a defence would be that it is a surprise that some people can't do that too. After all, #people are animals too.

Yeah, people drowning is total fake news. Because clownfish. It's a true fact, I read in the National Enquirer.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 24/10/2023 05:27

I had a marketing email about it from them yesterday, featuring their ‘Pansy Patrol.’

FFS. Queer & Pansy are homophobic insults. I might email back accusing them of using hateful language to a lesbian.

EtiennePalmiere · 24/10/2023 05:12

I wonder if Kew thinks this is legitimate or they're just following a trend or making a cash grab? I agree it's arrogant to only consider plants as defined by humans and not in their own right.
Also I do think I would feel insulted if I was a queer person to be pandered to with such drivel.

TeiTetua · 23/10/2023 15:41

So, maybe woke botanists say that for plants, it is a case of "Gender assigned at sprouting".

Cailleach1 · 23/10/2023 15:23

That is from a different religion, @MargotBamborough . I know the seemingly constant woman=witch can make one confuse it with this new one.

Maybe we're not too far off the animal and plant kingdom being a spectrum. So, some people will identify as being at the flying, or breathing underwater end. We need to get rid of the categories bit. Don't sit too long in one place either or you'll grow roots. Because we're living, and all these plants and animals are too. Exactly the same.

MargotBamborough · 23/10/2023 14:59

Cailleach1 · 23/10/2023 14:51

Some animals breath underwater. If you chuck someone into the sea and they drown, I'm sure a defence would be that it is a surprise that some people can't do that too. After all, #people are animals too.

I thought the standard defence to that was that you needed to check whether they were a witch.

Good news! She wasn't a witch! Hooray! Bad news.... she's dead.

Cailleach1 · 23/10/2023 14:51

DiscoBeat · 23/10/2023 01:25

I think some plants do change though? Pretty sure I've heard that before. Like some animals as well.

Some animals breath underwater. If you chuck someone into the sea and they drown, I'm sure a defence would be that it is a surprise that some people can't do that too. After all, #people are animals too.

MargotBamborough · 23/10/2023 14:39

MrsSkylerWhite · 23/10/2023 12:24

ChishiyaBat · Yesterday 19:30

There's nowt so queer as nature apparently😂

👏👏👏👏

Some plants are self pollinating, aren’t they? Where do they fall?

Can you identify as "self-pollinating" if you are basically just a wanker?

Abhannmor · 23/10/2023 14:01

When you're on mushrooms there are no sex categories because I am you and you are me and we are all together.

WitchyWitcherson · 23/10/2023 13:41

Trying to beat the TRAs at their own logic...

Did you know penicillin was discovered because a mould accidentally colonised a petri dish and killed off bacteria within it? Penicillin mould's need to have its own self contained petri dish is akin to women and girls need for single sex spaces and therefore my argument is valid because penicillin.

DysonSpheres · 23/10/2023 13:39

Plasmodesmata · 23/10/2023 07:51

I always thought it would be useful to photosynthesise.

😄😄😄

RavingStone · 23/10/2023 13:30

MagpiePi · 23/10/2023 11:32

All those gay male couples needing babies just need to identify as avocados and then they can literally go and fuck themselves 'self pollinate'.

I'd love to see a self pollinating plant exhibition called Go Fuck Yourself!

ApocalipstickNow · 23/10/2023 13:21

I ate a stir fry with mushrooms in it last week.

I would just like to apologise to the LGBT+ community and assure them I will not be eating any of them.

WoollyBat · 23/10/2023 13:12

But to be fair the whole thing reeks of some corporate training guff having been brought in, or some a role as inclusivity advisor being created for reasons of wokeness and going to an ideology-soaked 23-year-old. Resulting in them being told they have to inclusify everything they're about and somehow make it all about LGBTQ+ even if it has nothing to do with it.

(Not other categories mind. Why aren't we also being told some plants are white, black, disabled or religious, like holy basil? Hmmmmm?)

I bet some poor actual scientists at Kew were approached to provide these examples of "queer", bisexual, pansexual etc organisms and rolled their eyes but had to do it for fear of being ostracised.

MrsSkylerWhite · 23/10/2023 12:24

ChishiyaBat · Yesterday 19:30

There's nowt so queer as nature apparently😂

👏👏👏👏

Some plants are self pollinating, aren’t they? Where do they fall?

lordloveadog · 23/10/2023 12:22

Letting people do minimal science until 16 and then give it up altogether may not be the best plan for UK education. At least if you want to produce adults whose minds aren't blown when they realize that the diversity of nature includes diverse reproductive strategies. And then imagine this is because there's been some sort of conspiracy to make them believe that only sexual reproduction with two sexes is possible for any species, because that's how humans do it.

quizaa · 23/10/2023 11:35

If anything, I find the idea that gay/queer people would somehow be validated by comparison to the reproductive qualities of a fungus somewhat homophobic.

MagpiePi · 23/10/2023 11:32

All those gay male couples needing babies just need to identify as avocados and then they can literally go and fuck themselves 'self pollinate'.

BrimfulOfMash · 23/10/2023 11:30

Utterly demeaning for a scientific institution to indulge in anthropomorphic nonsense like this.

”ooh look how inspirational , plants that don’t reproduce on the basis of binary gametes…. let’s all live happy lives sustained by photosynthesis, too! Free ourselves from the metabolic system assigned at birth”

SinnerBoy · 23/10/2023 11:26

Oh no! 170 genders is bad enough, I couldn't take 30,000 odd!

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