Royal Osteoporosis Society

Hi Warrior,

I'm not a doctor so don't take this as gospel.

My first period was when I was 15 but my menopause was all done and dusted by the time that I was 33. Most of what I have learned has been from the bone density technician. Don't worry about what impact exercise you took in the past. That ship has sailed and your skeleton has survived. There are three elements for healthy bones (ingnoring smoking and excess alcohol).

The first is Calcium. There is a diet sheet from the ROS but it is mainly common sense. Milk, cheese, yoghurt are no-brainers. But broad leaf vegetables and even sausage rolls and pork pies increase your Calcium intake.

The second is vitamin D. The lazy way is to take Calcium tablets with vitamin D. You will create more and better vitamin D if you can expose your forearms to daylight for 10 minutes every day. Pull your sleeves up unless it is raining.

The third is bone work. You just need to take 100 unsupported upward steps every day (the step being a normal house or office stair step). By unsupported I mean without using a bannister.

Seriously though, it would be useful to know if your bone density is a problem. If you are worried go to a private GP. The fee is about £40 but they can refer you to an NHS bone scan facility who will report back to your NHS GP.

I hope that you don't need to worry but don't let your GP act as a service preventer.

Does anyone have links to any research that would provide answers to te underlying questions: ie (1) does long term use of testosterone by biological females — ie transmen — have an effect on bone density; (2) does long term use of estrogen by biological males (ie transwomen) have an effect on bone density; (3) do puberty blockers have long term effect on bone density?

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm worried too - not sure how late a late puberty is but I was 16 before periods started and went hypothyroid not long after. And that's been all over, including times where in retrospect I was probably on too much thyroxine for long periods as well as far too little which I know can be a risk. And late diagnosis of asthma so am on inhaled steroids for that.

Gp won't give me a bone scan when I ask. Had to come off hrt too. I'm lifting weights and taking vit d and did a ton of high impact sports in my 20s and 30s but I do worry.

She says she's struggled to get any help, which seems to be a common theme with detransitioners. No-one seems to know what to do with them.

So I discover on this thread that late puberty (tick) and premature menopause (tick) are risk factors for osteoporosis. It's a pity that my GP didn't know that or I might have had a bone density scan before I had two collapsed lumbar vertebrae rather than after. I had a third one collapse a couple of months ago but, since my bone density is still only 40% of target, I shouldn't have been surprised.

Sinead Watson on X was talking recently about how her testosterone is still high and her Oestrogen low, several years after stopping taking T, and the devastating effects of cross-sex hormones on her body, which she was not warned about before starting them.

I saw that thread; I really do think she should have some real body identical hrt rather than the combined pill she's on. Or a mirena. ( or both) I can't help wondering if the pill is worsening her Mh.

I fear this is true. Ditto medical conferences, schools materials, the soft social sciences.
I think the brutal reality dawning that our so-called informed and apolitical institutions are indeed weak bullet-point spouting non-entities.

I guarantee you every endocrinologist not tied to the capture, every physical therapist like me that is sick of this bull crap propaganda, will be doing good by our individual patients.

The bigger issues are going to be teen wannabe transitioners and young adults who have already done so, and on the fast track to frailty, who will be misled badly, and who will use this disinformation as ammo to disagree or dissent from best practice, ensuring (hundreds of) thousands more bad outcomes.

Is this another case of organisations and charities all being headed by the same merry-go-round set of identikit management professionals? High-powered office workers who have never spent a working day dealing with the issues that affect the grassroots service users?

I struggle to believe that anyone who had had a job helping patients manage osteoporosis could ever be this blase. Just witnessing one family member's slow deterioration from osteoporosis - ultimately caused by a teenage eating disorder -made me passionate about adolescent bone health.

But I think a team of clueless management professionals recruited externally could fuck up like this. Sadly, all they really know about their causes is the stuff they're paid to recite at the glossy awareness-rasing fundraisers.

After digging deep into this phenomenon, getting agitated by what I'd call the performance art of this movement, I've now put the machine into reverse, have reemerged, and now flying up to take in the helicopter view of the damaged terrain.

This is no better than being driven crazy by the likes of Lia Thomas, Isla Bryson, Mika Minio, Sarah Jane Baker etc.

In fact it's worse, taking in the overview of captured organisations. These are meant to be "the adults in the room". The people we look to for calm collected advice derived from best practice.

As Helen Joyce said recently, our organisations were staffed by definition with flawed individuals ie no humans are perfect, certainly the ROS would never had perfect advice. But it's advice would have been as good as possible.

In the previous age of at the very least apolitical best practice and evidence based policy, there is zero chance this new fake advice could ever have been contemplated, let alone been the official line of the organisation.

Now Helen Joyce is wondering just how rigorous have our institutions been over time? How long has the rot setting in been going on for?

As a physical therapist I cannot believe what I'm reading!

Even EPATH, the premier toxic TRA mouthpiece amongst medics acknowledges osteoporosis risks are likely.

But the so-called non captured ROS? Won't even go this far.

Beyond shit. CEO of organisations who say nonsense like this should have to resign.

https://genspect.org/swedish-documentary-stopping-the-trans-train/

This article about Leo, a Swedish kid and the Trans Train documentary. How can a reputable charity whose ONLY JOB is osteoporosis pretend that trans treatments have no effect on people's endocrine and skeletal systems?

"Sweden’s head of pediatric endocrinology (who had no involvement in Leo’s treatment) reviewed her test results and concluded that she had spinal fractures and two malformed vertebrae – highly likely as a result of the puberty blockers that were nonetheless continued for three more months after the damage was diagnosed."

"If you’re transgender, your risk of osteoporosis and broken bones is unlikely to be affected, as long as you’re taking prescribed hormone replacement therapy."

By trans people are typically not taking 'replacement' hormones, they're taking cross-sex hormones, which will do nothing to give their sexed body what it needs to maintain healthy bones (or a healthy anything for that matter).

Sinead Watson on X was talking recently about how her testosterone is still high and her Oestrogen low, several years after stopping taking T, and the devastating effects of cross-sex hormones on her body, which she was not warned about before starting them.

Chloe Cole?

Other side effects Cole experiences includes joint pain which she attributed to the puberty blockers.
"While I went on puberty blockers… I would hear cracks in my neck and my back," Cole said. "But to this day, I still experience joint pains, mainly in my arms, my hands, my knees, and mostly in my back and my neck."

https://www.foxnews.com/media/former-trans-kid-shares-pain-suffering-mutilating-gender-affirming-care-ive-gotten-no-help

If not, do you recall the nationality?

Kobe? Kobe is MtFtM

No, the one I'm thinking of is definitely female. Early 20's at the time but that must've been a couple of years ago now.

I've not seen Kobe before.

Have they misunderstood what a trans woman is?

Difficult to tell. I think (but could be very wrong) that they do know but don't want to say the following in clear terms:

• the average age of menopause is 50
• transwomen taking cross-sex hormones might consider the age of 50 to be the signal for a shared decision-making discussion with a healthcare team about the risk/benefit ratio of continuing to take [?] dosage of cross-sex hormones and the impact of this on several areas of health including bone health.

'When a trans woman reaches the normal age at which menopause would occur, a decision will be reached about continuing treatment' (from the link in RethinkingLife's post).

I'm struggling here, please help. Have they misunderstood what a trans woman is?

The fact sheet should address the age of transition etc. Nonetheless, it's not as misleading as it might have been. (Yes, this is a very low bar.)

I'm irritated by this final sentence here because it completely ignores the age skew and the general agreement that a hip fracture at the age of 60 is a sentinel event for a woman and carries a high risk of no longer being able to live independently. This happens later for men. There is also a sex difference in clinically identified (osteoporosis-related) vertebral fractures

In general, women are more at risk of developing osteoporosis because the reduction of sex hormone at the menopause is more rapid and profound than the age-related decline in testosterone in men. But osteoporotic fractures are frequent in both sexes.

https://theros.org.uk/information-and-support/osteoporosis/causes/transgender-trans-people-and-osteoporosis/

Yes, it should cover the evidence gap (at best) about the implications of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for young adults and beyond.

I know all about osteoporosis in my job, it's a brutal condition, and so hard to manage. After a certain point, it's totally debilitating, and contributes to reduced life expectancy. Even moderate affliction requires constant care and attention.

For the ROS to not come out unequivocally that the choices made by trans IDd individuals medicalising is hugely risky with potentially irreversible outcomes, is so disappointing, yet actually not surprising.

There was one particular young detransitioner a while back who described the constant, excruciating back pain and bone damage caused by taking testosterone.

Kobe? Kobe is MtFtM.

He now suffers from permanently stunted growth because of the puberty blockers and also suffers from chronic pain in his spine and is to be checked for osteoporosis.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12324617/Detransitioner-bitterly-regrets-having-testicles-removed-struggling-gay.html

A textbook example of feelings trumping reality. This is an organisation who's sole purpose is to give advice on prevention, and remedial, and support for those afflicted.
I even think they could have been more definitive in their language in years past re older Muslim/Asian women who cover up and stay indoors, and are as a group deficient in Vitamin D synthesis which is essential for absorbing Calcium into bones. Yet I don't remember the ROS saying there were no real concerns with them.

Even the culpable EPATH conference some months ago, they couldn't deny osteoporosis as an absolute timebomb. Yet here we have chocolate teapot advice from the primary osteoporosis pressure group.

Excellent.

Well done the Royal Osteoporosis Society.

Not only pretending it doesn't matter but wilfully misunderstanding the issue and getting the whole fucking thing arse about face.

I've had osteoporosis due to early menopause and it is a horrible, nasty disease. The thought that they cannot even advise properly due to an inability to be brave enough to say what we do already know, that blocking purberty does indeed pose a risk.

Yes again, another organisation making themselves completely and utterly pointless.

Just for a moment I hoped that there was a medical body centring health & wellbeing and that they would be warning children not to get sucked into this massive medical experiment on children that is likely to cause osteoporosis.
As usual I'm wrong and they're pandering to the dodgy medics experimenting on children.

Another established institution that won't speak clearly, and couches advice in politically correct terms.

Any behaviour choice that would promote poor bone health would be slated by this society in years past.

Today? No judgement call by the society.

It is vital for adult bone health, that females especially, go through normal female puberty.

Peak bone mass and density in women are largely established during puberty. It has been reported that nearly 40% of total body bone mineral accrual occurs in the two years before and two years after peak height velocity during the pubertal growth spurt

In early puberty, bone diameter is increased by rapid periosteal apposition, which slows down in later puberty. However, endocortical bone formation ensues continuing to increase cortical thickness and bone mass under the influence of increased estrogen exposure

Center for Bone Health. People whose genetic makeup triggers a later-than-average start to puberty have lower bone mineral density, especially in their lower spine. Because adolescence is a critical period for accruing bone, this effect may increase a person's risk of osteoporosis and bone fractures later in life

Not only is it the estrogen that is absolutely necessary, they know that normal instances of late puberty can have a detrimental effect.

So they are full of shit, because puberty blockers which delay or stop natural puberty and wrong sex hormones are extremely damaging.

Of course the osteoporosis society will know all this, but they are pandering to the middle aged genderist men in their info and not the teenage girls and young women who end up with crumbling spines and brittle bones due to lack of estrogen and overdosing on testosterone for years.

There was one particular young detransitioner a while back who described the constant, excruciating back pain and bone damage caused by taking testosterone.