Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Disappointed with our new head of DEI

69 replies

Ingenieur · 19/10/2023 15:43

We've just got a new head of DEI at work, and he gave a company-wide presentation regarding his agenda over the next few years.

Among the usual stuff you'd expect, there was no mention of sex as something worthy of discussion (in fact no mention at all of sex). A colleague asked why sex wasn't being addressed at all, only gender, as sex is the principal vector of discrimination, to which the DEI head responded:

Sex is being addressed as we capture this data for everyone as a mandatory HMRC requirement, and are beholden to the Equality Act 2010 under which sex is a protected characteristic. However, sex is a narrow biological category rooted in genitalia and chromosomes. It is less useful as a frame of reference for understanding and discussing human behaviour and experience than gender which, although often (not always) directly influenced by birth assigned sex, refers to the roles, norms, behaviours and relationships associated with masculinity and femininity - which are socially (rather than biologically) constructed. Sharing my response here, but happy to pick the conversation up further offline

I feel like my company, by ignoring sex, is creating a huge blind spot and it's made me a bit sad. They're also applying to become Stonewall diversity champions, which is nice...

OP posts:
ifIwerenotanandroid · 19/10/2023 23:21

Who interviewed him & awarded him the job? Didn't they ask him about this? Or do they not understand it either?

literalviolence · 19/10/2023 21:35

As a person who does not have a gender identity but is a biological female, I'd want to know how he will enact his duty to address equality issues which impact on me. It can't be about gender because I don't have one. of course that doesn't make me any less likely to be paid less or passed over for a job.

slore · 19/10/2023 21:33

This shouldn't be ignored, he's basically admitting he thinks that sex is unimportant, and that he's legally obligated to consider it but he'd rather not. Which shows a complete disregard for everything that women might suffer based on biology, which is nearly everything that we suffer. He is showing that he will be unable to address matters of equality and discrimination for women, which makes women in the company vulnerable.

I would officially complain about him. Imagine if he'd said "we're beholden to protecting race under the Equality Act, but it's a narrow definition based on physical appearance, and it's more useful to treat people as individuals, we're all the same underneath". He'd probably have to resign.

HermioneWeasley · 19/10/2023 21:29

Easy for a man to say that sex is less important than some bollocky word salad about nonsense. He’s admited he’s going to disregard a protected characteristic - one that impacts half the population.

SinnerBoy · 19/10/2023 21:20

I agree that beholden to the law was an odd usage. It gives the impression that he was gritting his teeth and saying that, unfortunately, they aren't allowed to put transw on an untouchable pedestal, at the expense of women.

lordloveadog · 19/10/2023 21:07

And that he sees the company as burdened by need to pay attention to things like pay equality. Because he sees protected characteristics based on physical bodies as narrow.

lordloveadog · 19/10/2023 21:04

Well he could hardly have opened the door wider to sex discrimination cases. Head of DEI literally just said he doesn't think sex discrimination is significant.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/10/2023 20:47

LoobiJee · 19/10/2023 19:33

Indeed.

“and are beholden to the Equality Act 2010 under which sex is a protected characteristic. “

A woman might see it as being “protected by” the Equality Act, rather than beholden to it.

This. Totally different relation to it - it's a shield, not a burden.

It seems to me that what he is saying is that he thinks the Gender" category will pick up sex discrimination issues, while also picking up gender discrimination. So, pregnancy leave would be sex related, but uniform related issues might be gender even for a woman.

'Gender discrimination' is not - legally - a thing. The protected characteristic is 'gender reassignment'.

Dinosaur companies with uniform policies that require women to wear makeup, tights and high heels (or ban them from wearing trousers) are discriminating on sex, not gender.

Sisterpita · 19/10/2023 19:38

JanesLittleGirl · 19/10/2023 17:41

I have found ED&I leads, and staff, often have one or more protected characteristic. This makes sense because they usually have encountered discrimination due to their PC.

Everybody has at least 6 of the 9 protected characteristics. The only ones that aren't universal are disability, gender reassignment and pregnancy and maternity.

You are right, I didn’t word it well. What I was trying to say is that they frequently come from the minorities within a PC that historically have suffered more discrimination e.g. disabled, ethnic minority, LGB etc.

LoobiJee · 19/10/2023 19:33

dapsnotplimsolls · 19/10/2023 18:51

'beholden' was an interesting word to use.

Indeed.

“and are beholden to the Equality Act 2010 under which sex is a protected characteristic. “

A woman might see it as being “protected by” the Equality Act, rather than beholden to it.

Ingenieur · 19/10/2023 19:29

dapsnotplimsolls · 19/10/2023 18:51

'beholden' was an interesting word to use.

Yes, I did find this to be an odd phrase to use, as though something as prosaic as the law is getting in the way of his good works.

OP posts:
dapsnotplimsolls · 19/10/2023 18:51

'beholden' was an interesting word to use.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/10/2023 18:48

Isn't it depressing to see so many ignorant men people being promoted despite their adherence to flat earthism, misogyny and profound ignorance about sex based oppression?
And I'll bet he's paid handsomely for displaying his inbuilt prejudices against women.

zurala · 19/10/2023 18:31

Could you set up an anonymous Gmail account to email him from to discuss further?

nepeta · 19/10/2023 18:18

Ingenieur · 19/10/2023 15:43

We've just got a new head of DEI at work, and he gave a company-wide presentation regarding his agenda over the next few years.

Among the usual stuff you'd expect, there was no mention of sex as something worthy of discussion (in fact no mention at all of sex). A colleague asked why sex wasn't being addressed at all, only gender, as sex is the principal vector of discrimination, to which the DEI head responded:

Sex is being addressed as we capture this data for everyone as a mandatory HMRC requirement, and are beholden to the Equality Act 2010 under which sex is a protected characteristic. However, sex is a narrow biological category rooted in genitalia and chromosomes. It is less useful as a frame of reference for understanding and discussing human behaviour and experience than gender which, although often (not always) directly influenced by birth assigned sex, refers to the roles, norms, behaviours and relationships associated with masculinity and femininity - which are socially (rather than biologically) constructed. Sharing my response here, but happy to pick the conversation up further offline

I feel like my company, by ignoring sex, is creating a huge blind spot and it's made me a bit sad. They're also applying to become Stonewall diversity champions, which is nice...

Just to note that most of the discrimination women face is directly sex-based, not based on wearing dresses or high heels etc. Employers prefer workers who cannot get pregnant, beliefs about women being less suited for leadership positions are based on arguments about innate biological differences and so on. And sexual harassment is almost entirely based on sex-related factors so that the harassers are predominantly male and the harassed predominantly female.

So it's not something about chromosomes and other things too narrow to deserve much attention. And if you look more widely, you will find religions and many cultural traditions directly advocate differential treatment on the basis of sex, to the detriment of women and girls.

pronounsbundlebundle · 19/10/2023 18:07

I thought it was the maternity pay gap, in reality, rather than sex or gender and there's data to back this up? How does that fit with his 'it's not about biology' bollocks.

Ingenieur · 19/10/2023 18:05

LoobiJee · 19/10/2023 17:38

”gender which, although often (not always) directly influenced by birth assigned sex, refers to the roles, norms, behaviours and relationships associated with masculinity and femininity - which are socially (rather than biologically) constructed.”

So it’s women’s “socially constructed role associated with femininity” that means they are the category of humans who have to risk their lives to bring the next generation of tax payers into the world, and need maternity leave, is it? Not their sex?

Did he use a chatbot to produce that response and then copy and paste it into the Teams chat box?

Yes, it does seem like he's been using ChatGPT!

OP posts:
MargotBamborough · 19/10/2023 18:04

Ingenieur · 19/10/2023 15:58

Yes, I'm disappointed that he dismissed sex as a "narrow category".

The irony is, when he was discussing biases earlier on, he was aware that people who don't experience discrimination directly are less likely to see it as a problem...

Categories are supposed to be narrow. They're supposed to group things or people according to a particular characteristic and exclude all things and people who do not have that characteristic. That is literally the whole point of them.

MargotBamborough · 19/10/2023 18:03

I honestly would be raising merry hell about this and making him rue the day he ever applied for this job.

MargotBamborough · 19/10/2023 18:01

This is a man who has decided that discrimination against the female sex is unimportant, is it, aye?

PaleBlueMoonlight · 19/10/2023 17:58

So is it. his view that it is feminine people who are underrepresented on company boards, and they are underrepresented because they are feminine?

Rudderneck · 19/10/2023 17:51

Double post

Rudderneck · 19/10/2023 17:46

It seems to me that what he is saying is that he thinks the Gender" category will pick up sex discrimination issues, while also picking up gender discrimination. So, pregnancy leave would be sex related, but uniform related issues might be gender even for a woman.

I think he's wrong, but I can also see how someone might think in their head this makes some kind of sense, if they aren't very clued in, which I think many people in these roles aren't (sorry people in this sector.)

What I would point out is that actually, if you don't differentiate, you would have no idea if most discrimination women face is gender rather than sex based.

There are other issues too, like whether gender is even a think that has a separate vector than sex, or what it would really encompass, but that is the one I would tend to put out there in this instance.

JanesLittleGirl · 19/10/2023 17:41

I have found ED&I leads, and staff, often have one or more protected characteristic. This makes sense because they usually have encountered discrimination due to their PC.

Everybody has at least 6 of the 9 protected characteristics. The only ones that aren't universal are disability, gender reassignment and pregnancy and maternity.