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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JKRowling. Prepared to go to prison for women's rights.

165 replies

Cismyfatarse · 18/10/2023 20:34

Share token here:

JK Rowling: I’ll happily go to prison for women’s rights

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/32d91356-6d9b-11ee-b5d7-5487922f056f?shareToken=f1594da48d0791b9d9a9e2a6cd8965c2. Hopefully this works for everyone. She really is a Queen.

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MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 15:59

Genesis1v27 · 25/10/2023 15:23

I haven't read the whole thread or the DM piece, but "misgendering" (actually correctly gendering) could be made an offence by Labour on a par with racial abuse according to this article on GB News: Row erupts over Labour's 'insane Orwellian' plan for giving jail sentences for 'misgendering'.

It isn't entirely clear whether they intend it to be made an offence by itself, or an aggravating factor as part of another offence such as assault or supposed harassment.

Luckily my time on Mumsnet has allowed me to hone my skills in talking extensively about trans identifying individuals without using any gendered pronouns to refer to them at all.

Prosecute that.

Genesis1v27 · 25/10/2023 15:51

They can’t imprison us all, FFS.

They won't need to. A few mercilessly punished examples will stand as warnings to the rest of us. They won't even need to successfully prosecute and jail anyone.

MavisMcMinty · 25/10/2023 15:38

I just googled, and would lose my NHS pension whilst in prison/on remand, otherwise I too would be prepared to go to prison over this.

If they made it a criminal offence I’d feel even more obliged to “misgender” people, doesn’t Labour understand human nature?

They can’t imprison us all, FFS.

Genesis1v27 · 25/10/2023 15:23

RoyalCorgi · 25/10/2023 14:36

Late to the thread, but is there any evidence that Labour has plans to make misgendering a criminal offence, let alone send offenders to prison for two years? The Daily Mail article didn't cite a source.

I haven't read the whole thread or the DM piece, but "misgendering" (actually correctly gendering) could be made an offence by Labour on a par with racial abuse according to this article on GB News: Row erupts over Labour's 'insane Orwellian' plan for giving jail sentences for 'misgendering'.

It isn't entirely clear whether they intend it to be made an offence by itself, or an aggravating factor as part of another offence such as assault or supposed harassment.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2023 15:16

Not really just a "silly idea". An oppressive attack on people's fundamental right to freedom of speech and belief.

AlphaTransWoman · 25/10/2023 14:58

Much as being misgendered annoys me, even I think that would be a silly idea.

MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 14:56

I don't think even Labour would be stupid enough to put that in their manifesto.

MavisMcMinty · 25/10/2023 14:53

It wouldn’t fly, it won’t happen, regardless of whether or not they intend it to.

RoyalCorgi · 25/10/2023 14:36

Late to the thread, but is there any evidence that Labour has plans to make misgendering a criminal offence, let alone send offenders to prison for two years? The Daily Mail article didn't cite a source.

Genesis1v27 · 25/10/2023 14:19

It's trivial, but formerly amusing "satirical" site The Onion had another go at J.K. Rowling this week: Everything J.K. Rowling Would Be Willing To Do To Protect Her Anti-Trans Views. The first slide is good, but the rest is sour and nasty, and it isn't worth wading through.

Some of the reactions on Twitter/X have been captured by Twitchy: 'Opposite of Funny': The Onion's Attack on J.K. Rowling Is All FAIL.

forgotmyusername1 · 20/10/2023 19:19

J k Rowling be like...

JKRowling.  Prepared to go to prison for women's rights.
RufustheFactualReindeer · 20/10/2023 18:17

HMP Low Newton (the highest security women's prison in the UK) has an extensive set of gardens and a petting zoo. I don't think they have those at Belmarsh

seems they built a petting zoo/garden at hmp hindley in 2021, not sure its still open obviously

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 20/10/2023 17:35

No male need ever requires the use of female people's bodies as a resource.

"The Sages insisted: Let him die, and she may not converse with him behind a fence." Sanhedrin 75a verse 2

Sanhedrin 75a:2

§ Apropos the discussion of the obligation to allow oneself to be killed rather than engage in forbidden sexual intercourse, the Gemara notes that Rav Yehuda...

https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.75a.2?lang=bi

Froodwithatowel · 20/10/2023 12:35

AlphaTransWoman · 19/10/2023 23:13

Trans women may have similar emotional needs to other women even though they are physically male. The question is how to meet these, and ensure their safety and dignity, without putting other women at risk by admitting them to female prisons.

What emotional needs do TW have that are different to the emotional needs of other male people but similar to female people?

Since when were decisions on the sex based prison estate organised around emotional needs?

I'm sorry, this is delusional. TW prisoners may very well be vulnerable and have particular needs, and absolutely those needs should be met, properly, thoroughly. And the needs of male prisoners with MH issues, which is an appalling problem, and the needs of gay male prisoners, and the needs of elderly male prisoners, talk to someone who works in the prison system and they will talk at you for a long time, often with a lot of care and concern, for the many very vulnerable men they support. Privacy, dignity and safety should be a basic human right for everyone, male and female.

No male need ever requires the use of female people's bodies as a resource. Because lets be honest about this, it isn't the space that's wanted. That expensive special wing in a women's prison was created for TW prisoners who did not risk assess (at the time) as safe enough to inflict on women to meet the wish to be on the female estate. It was never used, because it was not about the space it was about the right to physical access to women's bodies. The TW and their lawyers and this political lobby kicked off until those TW got access to women prisoners. And that probably played a large part, along with the one in pink leggings, in pushing the government to say, right, no male offenders with intact genitals and/or a history of sexual or violent crime. And as it turns out - that pretty much ruled out all of them.

And yes, it is that ugly in being about a male right to women's bodies, because no other part of these women is of any interest. Not their feelings, their emotional needs, their sense of self, their beliefs and identities, their wishes for their best lives and authentic selves, their definition of sexuality - no, it's about how their physical body meets the need of the male, whether it's as a prop in the room to 'be with other women' or in the case of White at al, to make use of for getting the sexual abuse jollies buzz.

I don't draw a line between where it's 'ok' to use women and where it becomes 'oh that's getting a bit grim now' - it's all using women's bodies, that can never be acceptable. And there's a pattern in all of this. In the refusal to permit women accessible female only spaces or health care or rape crisis service or escape from a life threatening relationship in along side accessible mixed sex 'womens' ones, which we'd all be fine with - in the refusal to permit women to be homosexual openly and proudly and say 'my personal choice is no male of any identity'. All of it is about anger where a woman wishes to control access to her body preventing use in a way that a male person feels they have special entitlement to. I'm done with the abuse of this agenda towards women and I am absolutely done with special pleading.

Datun · 20/10/2023 11:40

It seems to me that these 'emotional needs' are those of men and they are paramount, obvs. And if women can be forced to supply them, then it's all good.

Far from being a distinction between men and transwomen, they look pretty identical to me.

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2023 11:14

So what is the emotional need? To be affirmed as women? To be in a women's space because this constitutes "proof" that they are women and that they are seen as women by society?

That is an emotional need that only trans women have.

The rest of us don't need to be affirmed as women because we actually are women. We know it, everyone knows it, there is no debate about it.

So being affirmed as women is not an emotional need that both trans women and women have.

What about the emotional need for abused women to be away from males?

As I say the emotional needs of women seem to be totally invisible when discussing this matter. Only the emotional needs of transwomen are ever mentioned.

Plus if all transwomen are women, then if you have a section within the prison system only for 'special women with a super special certain vulnerability' then whats the fucking problem?

ManuelBensonsLeftBoot · 20/10/2023 10:48

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/10/2023 09:51

Apologies I see several other people have asked that question. And it's still awaiting an answer.

Don't apologize - if enough of ask we might get an answer. I mean it hasn't worked for 'what make you believe you are a woman rather than a man', 'so if it isn't biological how do define woman' or 'how do you tell a genuine trans person from a predator trying to game the system' or any of the other FAQs but maybe one day @AlphaTransWoman or one of the other posters that seem to think it's just silly little women are failing to grasp a simple concept will come back with a clear, concise answer to one of these questions (rather than ignoring them or serving a jumbo word salad) and all will become clear.

MargotBamborough · 20/10/2023 09:53

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/10/2023 09:48

Trans women may have similar emotional needs to other women

What would these "emotional needs" be that women as a sex and a small group of males have?

As far as I can work out, in the context of prison, the argument appears to be that trans women have physical needs and emotional needs.

The physical need is safety. I think most of us would say it is unarguable that safety is a physical need, but that everyone has an equal need for safety, including women whose safety is compromised if they are housed with males, and vulnerable men whose safety is compromised by the fact that they are vulnerable, but who do not identify as women and are therefore not allowed in the women's prison estate.

Let's say we could guarantee trans women's safety in the men's prison estate.

Is that sufficient? If not, why not? Because of the emotional need that cannot be met in a men's prison?

OK.

So what is the emotional need? To be affirmed as women? To be in a women's space because this constitutes "proof" that they are women and that they are seen as women by society?

That is an emotional need that only trans women have.

The rest of us don't need to be affirmed as women because we actually are women. We know it, everyone knows it, there is no debate about it.

So being affirmed as women is not an emotional need that both trans women and women have.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/10/2023 09:51

Apologies I see several other people have asked that question. And it's still awaiting an answer.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/10/2023 09:48

Trans women may have similar emotional needs to other women

What would these "emotional needs" be that women as a sex and a small group of males have?

ManuelBensonsLeftBoot · 20/10/2023 09:47

The question is how to meet these, and ensure their safety and dignity, without putting other women at risk by admitting them to female prisons.

@AlphaTransWoman bit transphobic of you to suggest trans women could ever be a danger to women. Firstly they are the exact same thing, secondly trans folx are all without exception* kind, gentle, just wanting to peeeeee, the most vulnerable and oppressed.

*Any pink legging wearing rapists or child abduction pedophiles who have been living 'as a women' for 10 years aren't actually trans, even though they say they are (or now say they aren't) and saying you are trans is the only measure of trans-ness. Is that clear?

Now report to your nearest reeducation center to ensure there are not any repeats of your wrong think.

SecondUsername4me · 20/10/2023 09:45

If men (who pretend they are women) don't want to be locked up with other men, they could always just not commit the fucking crime in the first place.

WickedSerious · 20/10/2023 09:32

AlphaTransWoman · 19/10/2023 23:13

Trans women may have similar emotional needs to other women even though they are physically male. The question is how to meet these, and ensure their safety and dignity, without putting other women at risk by admitting them to female prisons.

There's no 'other women' here,you're talking about men.

MargotBamborough · 20/10/2023 09:12

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2023 08:05

Not forgetting that women in prison are especially vulnerable and more likely to have been the victim of sexual abuse. This will be a significant minority if not majority of all female prisoners.

Thus the emotional needs of women in prison may well be to away from males due to trauma.

And thus the emotional needs of transwomen, no matter how similar they might be to women, will always remain different and incompatible and in direct conflict.

Because women are women. And transwomen are still men.

You can not change this.

You can not say
The question is how to meet these, and ensure their safety and dignity, without putting other women at risk by admitting them to female prisons.

Because it misses one very fundamental point and AlphaTransWoman highlights it well.

AlphaTransWoman talks about meeting the safety and dignity of transwomen, and only mentions 'the risk' to women. AlphaTransWomen doesn't mention the emotional needs of the women. And AlphaTransWomen remains silent on the dignity of women.

Its like the emotional needs and dignity of women don't exist. They are invisible. Only the emotional needs and dignity of transwomen are mentioned.

And THAT is the problem in a nutshell.

Transwomen need specialist services for Transwomen. Not to share them with women.

This.

gotomomo · 20/10/2023 08:34

@Rightsraptor

But why does it matter if a masculine looking man is in a mini skirt. Yes it looks frankly ridiculous, fools nobody but that's just personal choice, not affecting you. If same person demands to use female changing at the leisure centre, that's different, that affects women

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