Page 4 | Harriet Harman says women are women, or men who are 'certified' women.

ArabellaScott · 2023-10-15T13:07:54+00:00

[[https://twitter.com/roseveniceallan/status/1713176479528300891 https://twitter.com/roseveniceallan/status/1713176479528300891]] 'There's a question of what is a woman and what is a man. But I would say a woman is someone who is born a woman or someone who under the GRA 2004 is certified as having transitioned from a man to a woman'. ... 'I support the GRA and don't want to see it rolled back. We brought it forward for a very good reason'. Harriet Harman, at the Fawcett Society event. Thank you, Julia Long, for asking the question.

Readingundertheoaktree · 16/10/2023 09:43

How dare Harriet Harman and the Labour party tell me, as someone who has survived domestic violence, that if I go into a refuge I don't deserve to have the safety of a single sex space? How fucking dare she.

DameMaud · 16/10/2023 09:40

Thank you for laying that out so clearly StripeySuperNova. I think that's spot on. You've articulated my unformed doubt and discomfort for me.

MargotBamborough · 16/10/2023 09:28

StripeySuperNova · 16/10/2023 09:23

First point. The phrase in the Equality Act is 'single sex exceptions'. They're not exemptions. So any politician talking about this and calling them exemptions doesn't really have a good enough grasp on the topic to convince me.

And I have 2 questions for Labour. If single-sex spaces and services are indeed lawful and sometimes necessary or desirable, exactly how do we exclude men who have their sex as female on ALL their ID including their birth certificate?

(My labour party candidate when I met with her thought I was asking how do we know he is male. I had to correct her. No, we know he is male because we can SEE he is male. How do we legitimately and legally refuse him entry to the female only space or service when all his ID says female?)

And then, if single-sex spaces and service CAN exclude those with a GRC then what exactly is the point of a GRC?

From my conversation it seems Labour want to 'bring the public along with them'. Starmer has said it. My local candidate agrees that's what they need to do. So I read this as putting out public messages that seem like they appease women like us here but actually it's just a cover for the real plan which is self-ID. Labour saw how disastrous it was in Scotland but I think they have wrongly concluded this was because of PR rather than a failing of the policy. Therefore they are adjusting their PR but not the substance. The tactics my candidate employed were - it's only a few; they really are very distressed; there are bigger problems to focus on.

But the one positive is the much needed conversation is being had now and it will be an election issue.

Labour doesn't need to bring the public along with them.

The public needs to bring Labour along with them.

They work for us, not the other way around.

EasternStandard · 16/10/2023 09:27

StripeySuperNova · 16/10/2023 09:23

First point. The phrase in the Equality Act is 'single sex exceptions'. They're not exemptions. So any politician talking about this and calling them exemptions doesn't really have a good enough grasp on the topic to convince me.

And I have 2 questions for Labour. If single-sex spaces and services are indeed lawful and sometimes necessary or desirable, exactly how do we exclude men who have their sex as female on ALL their ID including their birth certificate?

(My labour party candidate when I met with her thought I was asking how do we know he is male. I had to correct her. No, we know he is male because we can SEE he is male. How do we legitimately and legally refuse him entry to the female only space or service when all his ID says female?)

And then, if single-sex spaces and service CAN exclude those with a GRC then what exactly is the point of a GRC?

From my conversation it seems Labour want to 'bring the public along with them'. Starmer has said it. My local candidate agrees that's what they need to do. So I read this as putting out public messages that seem like they appease women like us here but actually it's just a cover for the real plan which is self-ID. Labour saw how disastrous it was in Scotland but I think they have wrongly concluded this was because of PR rather than a failing of the policy. Therefore they are adjusting their PR but not the substance. The tactics my candidate employed were - it's only a few; they really are very distressed; there are bigger problems to focus on.

But the one positive is the much needed conversation is being had now and it will be an election issue.

This is exactly it.

Take the public with you, these words are doing that but the legal situation is actually moving towards ease for GRC holders.

They want to get to the goal without the ‘heat’

Going by some posts on here it’s working somewhat

You have to be pretty accurate to look at what counts and what doesn’t and why

StripeySuperNova · 16/10/2023 09:23

First point. The phrase in the Equality Act is 'single sex exceptions'. They're not exemptions. So any politician talking about this and calling them exemptions doesn't really have a good enough grasp on the topic to convince me.

And I have 2 questions for Labour. If single-sex spaces and services are indeed lawful and sometimes necessary or desirable, exactly how do we exclude men who have their sex as female on ALL their ID including their birth certificate?

(My labour party candidate when I met with her thought I was asking how do we know he is male. I had to correct her. No, we know he is male because we can SEE he is male. How do we legitimately and legally refuse him entry to the female only space or service when all his ID says female?)

And then, if single-sex spaces and service CAN exclude those with a GRC then what exactly is the point of a GRC?

From my conversation it seems Labour want to 'bring the public along with them'. Starmer has said it. My local candidate agrees that's what they need to do. So I read this as putting out public messages that seem like they appease women like us here but actually it's just a cover for the real plan which is self-ID. Labour saw how disastrous it was in Scotland but I think they have wrongly concluded this was because of PR rather than a failing of the policy. Therefore they are adjusting their PR but not the substance. The tactics my candidate employed were - it's only a few; they really are very distressed; there are bigger problems to focus on.

But the one positive is the much needed conversation is being had now and it will be an election issue.

RebelliousCow · 16/10/2023 09:19

Of course Labour is also committed to making it far easier to get a GRC - effectively self Id. This will mean lots more 'male women' around who Labour intend to protect as 'women'. There are also many voices within Labour that have suggested that to clarify 'sex' refers to biological sex would be discrimatory to trans people.

When will people start to believe them when they tell us what they intend to do?

EasternStandard · 16/10/2023 09:06

ArabellaScott · 16/10/2023 08:27

So to recap:

Labour say women are adult females

By this they mean women and certificated men

They plan to make it easier to get a certificate

Its illegal to ask if someone has a certificate

Just how do Labour propose to protect single sex exemptions using this fudgelogic?

They don’t

They just hope women won’t work it out

MargotBamborough · 16/10/2023 09:05

They don't. They're hoping people are stupid and desperate enough to vote for them anyway.

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 16/10/2023 08:27

So to recap:

Labour say women are adult females

By this they mean women and certificated men

They plan to make it easier to get a certificate

Its illegal to ask if someone has a certificate

Just how do Labour propose to protect single sex exemptions using this fudgelogic?

OP posts:

Froodwithatowel · 16/10/2023 08:24

Bdaybdilemma · 16/10/2023 08:19

Good on her! Glad they're not doing Sunak's populist move of appeasing to the likes of this board.

Absolutely!

What twit would want disabled and homosexual people and people of minority faiths and cultures to want equality of access and rights?
What muppet thinks women should have equality of access and rights to men?
What idiot would care about child safeguarding?

Populist bastard, as if these things matter!

Can you even hear yourself or were you sent from outside to try desperately to smear this thread?

Bdaybdilemma · 16/10/2023 08:19

Good on her! Glad they're not doing Sunak's populist move of appeasing to the likes of this board.

Floisme · 16/10/2023 08:17

Actually she doesn't say 'spaces' she says 'single sex exemptions' (which is the phrase used in the Equality Act I believe) or 'single sex services'.

I didn't used to be so distrusting but here I am.

Floisme · 16/10/2023 08:09

Sorry formatting fail and I forgot the link.second paragraph ('We will make sure....') is taken from the article.

link here

Floisme · 16/10/2023 08:07

Here's the link to the article. She refers to 'single sex spaces' at least 3 times, including this:

'We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.'

The phrase 'biological woman only' does imply that a GRA still wouldn't give access to them (it's also the thread my vote is currently hanging from) but they've not clarified, and after this latest from HH, I need them to.

SerotinaPickeler · 16/10/2023 08:02

Has the Labour Women's Declaration people said anything about this? (I mean the Labour Party Women who signed up to knowing what a woman is).

Floisme · 16/10/2023 07:57

I believe they've since said 'single sex spaces' Cranky, I can't remember where right now but it might have been the Annelise Dodds article outlining Labour's shift in position.

But (again from memory) that article didn't define 'single sex spaces' and what affect the GRA would have on them, other than that they would make it easier to obtain them.

That's why I very much want to know whether H H was expressing her own opinion or letting slip Labour Party policy.

Crankywiddershins · 16/10/2023 06:22

Floisme · 15/10/2023 14:53

This is why we need Labour - and I don't mean an individual MP, I mean the party manifesto - to define exactly what they mean when they say they will protect single sex spaces.

But I don't think anyone in the party has said that they will protect single sex spaces, the wording was all about "safe spaces" with no clarification about who would get to feel safe in them

IcakethereforeIam · 15/10/2023 23:22

The quantum female, both a particle and a wave.

AutumnCrow · 15/10/2023 22:31

Feministwoman · 15/10/2023 22:08

Hasn't said anything to support Rosie Duffield though, has she?

There has been nothing of which I'm aware.

Feministwoman · 15/10/2023 22:08

Hasn't said anything to support Rosie Duffield though, has she?

RealityFan · 15/10/2023 21:49

AutumnCrow · 15/10/2023 21:44

So I'm back to pushing my Labour MP to confirm or deny that his Party will define women as adult human females who are the XX chromosomal sex

(including women with DSDs that can only affect women)

(and the equivalent for girls)

I suspect he thinks that Labour has a get-out clause for everything under the Equality Act 2010. Maybe so - but for fuck's sake man be up front about it and say what it is and say the words out loud. And stop hiding behind Anneliese Dodds and HH.

No way will any Labour MP go as far as XX or female DSD. All you get is "adult female".
And as we heard from HH today, adult females are women and individuals with a GRC.

I truly believe this is as "good" as you'll get.

AutumnCrow · 15/10/2023 21:44

So I'm back to pushing my Labour MP to confirm or deny that his Party will define women as adult human females who are the XX chromosomal sex

(including women with DSDs that can only affect women)

(and the equivalent for girls)

I suspect he thinks that Labour has a get-out clause for everything under the Equality Act 2010. Maybe so - but for fuck's sake man be up front about it and say what it is and say the words out loud. And stop hiding behind Anneliese Dodds and HH.

Ramblingnamechanger · 15/10/2023 21:01

Thank you Julia. Let’s all be more Julia and ask these questions and get them to clarify / justify it whenever they come up up with this bullshit. It will never be acceptable and it is not a compromise.

Pudmyboy · 15/10/2023 20:43

piesforever · 15/10/2023 18:47

Oh get a life, there's actually issues out there that affect people.

I have a life, as an adult human female, and want to help protect other (juvenile and adult) human females aka people from the erosion of hard won rights and safe spaces. So quite a busy and full life really

Pudmyboy · 15/10/2023 20:38

AutumnCrow · 15/10/2023 14:23

Knew it.

The Labour Party's definition of a woman is 'legal woman', i.e. can be a man.

Yep this was my suspicion too, means they cannot be trusted when they say they support women at all , won't believe they support women till they say a woman is an adult human female.
Actually probably won't believe them then either, the shifty snakes.