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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling, Margaret Atwood, Philip Pullman and "the death of the author"

80 replies

MargotBamborough · 11/10/2023 10:21

Firstly, this thread is not quite about "the death of the author" as Roland Barthes meant it. It is more about the idea that a work of literature can be separated from its author and enjoyed on its own merits even if you no longer wish to endorse the author due to their political views.

Secondly, hello JKR if you are lurking on Mumsnet. I hope you are having a lovely day.

I am in a baby bumpers group for mothers of children born in the same month as my son. The group originated on Reddit, so it is very US-centric, and has given me a lot of insight into women like me, living in a political environment completely unlike the one I am used to.

In this group, dissenting political views simply are not tolerated. It isn't explicitly said, but members of the group feel perfectly at ease expressing certain political views, such as that trans women are women, trans kids should be allowed to use spaces and compete in sports according to their gender identity, and that the conservative attacks on women's right to an abortion are appalling. I agree with some of these views, but not others. But what is noticeable is that there seems to be only one acceptable set of views, and that if members of the group do hold opposing views, they do not feel comfortable expressing them. I like being in the group so I hold my tongue when others are expressing political views I disagree with, notably anything trans related.

There's a subset of the group who are huge, huge Harry Potter fans. They are all up to their necks in merchandise, they dress their kids up in Harry Potter themed costumes for photoshoots, they're all just way, way more into Harry Potter than anyone I have ever met in the UK, and yet by common consensus they do not discuss JK Rowling because they're all so disappointed in her.

When I asked the group whether any of them had read the Cormoran Strike series it felt a little awkward, and then one of them mentioned JK Rowling being controversial. So I kind of pleaded ignorance and said I didn't think JK Rowling was as controversial a figure in the UK as she is in the US. I was told that the entire group agreed that she has some "pretty bad takes" and that they don't like to talk about her. But the person who told me that also indicated that she personally enjoys the Cormoran Strike books, and I started discussing those with her in a separate chat. She didn't know there was a new book out and I'm hoping we'll be able to talk about it once she has read it. Ironically, I think that even though she was the one who shut down the discussion about JK Rowling in the main group, she's probably the one who is most receptive to alternative points of view. In our own chat she agreed that Troubled Blood is not a transphobic book, she didn't get what all the fuss was about, and it was probably her favourite in the series so far.

On the one hand, I find it absolutely incredible that people can still be obsessed with Harry Potter to the point that, in their 30s, their love for Harry Potter still forms a part of their own personal identity, and simultaneously hate JK Rowling and want to distance her as much as possible from her own creation. There are so many other books in the world. Why not move on from Harry Potter altogether?

On the other hand, I am personally experiencing a similar conflict when it comes to other authors and artists whose work I enjoy, but whose views on women's rights I find disappointing.

The two that immediately spring to mind for me are Margaret Atwood and Philip Pullman.

There's no way that Margaret Atwood doesn't know what a woman is. She wrote the Handmaid's Tale, for crying out loud. A dystopian novel focused around the exploitation of women for their reproductive labour. She knows. There's no way she doesn't know. And she actually, a while ago, made some mild comments about not being allowed to say "woman" anymore, which were immediately seized upon by trans activists. She saw the mob approaching with their pitchforks and immediately recanted.

To a certain extent, I get it. She's an old woman. She doesn't want to have this fight. She has a very lucrative contract with Hulu, she's enjoying far more fame and fortune in her old age than most feminist writers can aspire to, and she probably won't live long enough to find out whether "trans women are women" really was the right side of history or not. But it's still disappointing.

Then there's Philip Pullman. Ugh. What an arsehole.

He wrote one series condemning organised religion, magical thinking and macabre experiments performed on pubescent children, and another series focused around a gender non-conforming woman living in an era when the odds were stacked against women even more than they are now. How can the man who created Sally Lockhart believe that trans women are women? If Sally Lockhart were a real person she would be a card carrying TERF, there is no doubt about it.

But Philip? No, he asks these leading questions on Twitter, the faux innocent, "Explain the gender critical position to me." He lets thousands of women patiently describe their experiences and outline their concerns to me. And then hours later he makes some sanctimonious jibe about how he "can't abide bigotry".

So whilst, on the one hand, I don't get how "liberal feminist" Potterheads can continue to be obsessed with Harry Potter whilst condemning JK Rowling, and on the other hand I would like to continue to enjoy the Sally Lockhart series whilst trying to forget that that odious wanker Philip Pullman ever had anything to do with them.

Can anyone else relate?

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MargotBamborough · 13/10/2023 13:58

@Rudderneck I didn't interpret it like that though.

JK Rowling's comments about not believing any book should be burned were in the context of a discussion about people who wanted to burn her books. And the point she was making is that it isn't so much about burning a physical object as it is about wanting to destroy an idea, an idea that you consider so dangerous that its very existence poses a threat.

I think it's completely fair to do some self reflection about the fact that religious conservatives wanted to ban Harry Potter books from school libraries in the 1990s, and today those same people want to ban books with LGBT content from school libraries.

Is it the same?

If not, why not?

What are they objecting to?

Is it legitimate?

Do I agree with those people that these books should be banned from school libraries?

If so, why?

What books are we talking about, exactly?

If I disagreed with those people in the 1990s about banning Harry Potter but I agree with them now about LGBT books, why? What's the difference?

It really does force you to examine your own thinking and make sure you understand where you are drawing your own moral lines and why.

For example. I think banning Harry Potter books from school libraries is insane because I don't believe in magic or witchcraft, I don't believe these books are evil, I actually think they have a very good moral message, and I don't believe in God so I don't think these books are leading children away from God. I also don't think that the people who were objecting to them had actually read them. In particular, David Hogue who was a lawyer working for the families who wanted to ban the books at the time and who is interviewed in the podcast, admitted that when he fought that case he had not read the books. He later read the books and changed his mind about them and said that he was glad he lost that case.

So what is different about "LGBT books"?

Well, firstly, I don't think "LGBT books" should be banned from school libraries either. In particular, I think that books which normalise same sex relationships and children growing up in families with same sex parents, are important. It is important for children growing up in those types of families, or children who suspect that they might be same sex attracted, to see themselves and their families represented. But I do think some of these books are harmful to children. I think that "Grandad's Pride" promotes adult sexual fetishes which are completely inappropriate for young children, and I have some concerns about whether it might be promoting the breaking of strict moral and legal boundaries such as the prohibition on sexual relationships between adults and children. And I think that the book about the girl with gender dysphoria which depicts all the things she hates about her female body promotes gender dysphoria and glorifies self harm. I wouldn't want my daughter reading it. On a slightly less extreme level, I don't want my children reading anything which encourages gender stereotypes, which I think pretty much all books which teach that whether you are a boy or a girl is a question of identity are at risk of doing.

But listening to the podcast did encourage me to challenge my own beliefs and work out why I feel the way I do and examine whether my feelings are really justified or whether there is an element of prejudice there.

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Rudderneck · 13/10/2023 10:49

I suppose that's true as far as it goes, but so far, I can't think of any article or podcast or media where I have seen that issue laid out in a way that wasn't fairly shallow. Just, this kind of book burning stuff or wanting to remove Mark Twain is the same as wanting to remove a picture book with an illustration of bondage gear, or a teen book that talks about how to arrange online hook-ups.

To me, that is really the most banal of observations. They never seem to ask, what is the role or mission of a school library, is it different than a public library, why do libraries have guidelines for children's materials in the first place if inappropriateness isn't a valid issue, what is the basis for deciding what is or is not appropriate, etc. These should at the very least be obvious questions to anyone talking about this issue, and I am quite surprised in a way that JKR isn't aware of that, or can't see that saying "LGB content" doesn't in itself tell us that those things are ok (or not) in a children's library unless we unpick why we have standards and what they are based upon.

I think some people have this vague idea that the author gets to decide what books are suitable for what age group. There was a fuss a while back about the author of a popular teen novel. One library system in the US was looking at all their teen books, and reclassified some, including his, as adult. So they would be placed in the adult section. (Which, btw, teens have access to in a public library.)

The author was very upset, thought it was crazy because he had written the book for teens, obviously it was a teen book. Now, I don't know that I think the book was not find in a teen section - but not just because the author saw them as his intended audience. The library system, IMO, it totally within it's rights to decide a book doesn't belong in these kinds of restricted sections. And in this case it's not like the book was even unavailable.

Ultimately with things like this, apart from material that might actually be dangerous or illegal, to some extent it always comes down to community values. Sometimes they try and dress it up as something else, but that is what they are talking about. And the truth is that not everyone in the community will have the same views, and libraries tend to take a broad approach, but some things still, like Grandad's Pride, may fall so outside of those for the majority that it's a problem. And in some communities, some approaches to LGB material will be controversial for a larger portion of the community too.

MargotBamborough · 13/10/2023 09:49

Rudderneck · 13/10/2023 01:36

It's very cleverly done because although this podcast is very much JKR's big self defence, it still does encourage listeners on either side of the debate to have a few "are we the baddies?" moments. Like when it talks about right wing conservatives wanting to ban books with LGBT content from schools. I know there are a couple of those books that I have an issue with (Grandad's Pride, for one, and the one with the illustration of the "trans boy" with all the things they hate about their female body like the "fatty lumps that need to be gone" for another). I believe those books are harmful to children but does wanting them removed from school libraries make me the same as the people who wanted to ban Harry Potter for promoting witchcraft?

I mean, if we followed this to its logical conclusion, we'd be happy to make any kind of written content available to children, which seems like an extreme position.

I agree, and I think that my concerns about those specific books being available to children in school libraries are well founded.

And JKR said in the podcast there is no book in the world that she would burn. She didn't say there was no book in the world that she thinks is unsuitable for a school library.

But I think the way the podcast juxtaposes the concerns from 20 years ago about Harry Potter being in school libraries and concerns today about LGBT books being in school libraries is very clever, because even if you ultimately come to the conclusion that the first wasn't justified but the second is, it still encourages you to challenge your own beliefs and ask yourself whether you are really sure you're right about this one.

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EdithStourton · 13/10/2023 09:34

PrimitivePerson · 11/10/2023 14:38

I've worked somewhere that is something of a pilgrimage for Harry Potter fans. Pretty much all of them are adults. The kids have simply moved on to other things. Nothing to do with Rowling's views - they're simply growing up with other stories.

Haven't RTFT (yet) but Potter is still hugely popular amongst children. I work in a primary school and at one point 8 or 10 of a class of 31 Y4s (maybe Y5s, it was a year or two ago that I counted up) were reading HP. On World Book Day lots of them come in togged up as HP or Ron or Hermione or whoever.

Which isn't to say that there's not a lot of good new fiction for heir age group constantly hitting the shelves.

Rudderneck · 13/10/2023 01:36

It's very cleverly done because although this podcast is very much JKR's big self defence, it still does encourage listeners on either side of the debate to have a few "are we the baddies?" moments. Like when it talks about right wing conservatives wanting to ban books with LGBT content from schools. I know there are a couple of those books that I have an issue with (Grandad's Pride, for one, and the one with the illustration of the "trans boy" with all the things they hate about their female body like the "fatty lumps that need to be gone" for another). I believe those books are harmful to children but does wanting them removed from school libraries make me the same as the people who wanted to ban Harry Potter for promoting witchcraft?

I mean, if we followed this to its logical conclusion, we'd be happy to make any kind of written content available to children, which seems like an extreme position.

Rudderneck · 13/10/2023 01:34

IcakethereforeIam · 13/10/2023 01:03

Was that Marion Zimmer Bradley?

Yup.

maltravers · 13/10/2023 01:12

History will be kind to JKR when this period of collective mania is viewed in the future.

IcakethereforeIam · 13/10/2023 01:03

Was that Marion Zimmer Bradley?

CheeseChamp · 13/10/2023 00:54

I loved the book, The Mists of Avalon. Turned out the writer abused her own child.

I think I'm able to separate it out in a way. You can't get past some of the weird abusive sex stuff in the books though, once you know what went on in her home.

So in the grand scheme, i find the Rowling stuff just hysteria. People with absolutely zero concept of what real horrors there are in this world. Sheltered, pampered nincompoops.

I'm a big potter fan in my 40s. I recently read them all again. I do read other stuff. There's just something about it. And reading those books, well there is no doubt in my mind who is on the right side of history. Rowling, a bigot? These people are utter morons.

I feel like I can't be bothered with any of it anymore, I have given up all faith in humanity. I plan to make enough to go and live somewhere very remote and I won't have to ever deal with idiots again for the rest of my days.

MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 23:24

I started listening to the witch trials podcast for a second time in the car today and was struck by a really interesting point.

JKR and Megan Phelps-Roper are discussing the early Harry Potter fandom that developed on the internet in the late 90s and there are a few quotes from people who were involved in that whole scene as teenagers when Harry Potter was first published.

A really common theme seems to be people who describe themselves as having had an unhappy childhood and feeling like outsiders, reading a book about a boy with an unhappy childhood who felt like an outsider and then found out he was special and got taken off to an amazing magical world where everyone was special in the same way that he was, and loving the books and then finding themselves in this online fandom where everyone else was also different in the same way they were, i.e. Potterheads, often with unhappy home lives. I can imagine that for those kids, spending all your free time on Mugglenet as an escape from the real world and becoming someone well known and respected in an online community was almost in a way like getting a letter telling you that you were different in a good way and then getting to go and live at Hogwarts.

In addition, as JKR says, a lot of those children were gay or gender non conforming, which is why they felt different in the first place, and the Harry Potter fandom was their safe haven where they met a lot of other kids like them.

Although not all kids who grew up loving Harry Potter will have experienced it as intensely as that, for those people, particularly the ones who ended up identifying as trans, I can imagine it felt almost like, kids like them were the students at Hogwarts and JK Rowling was Dumbledore. And then, they feel, she turned against them and became more like Voldemort. (A lot of them actually say she has turned into Voldemort.)

It does make the intense hatred of JKR sort of make sense in a weird way. My only hate sprung from my only love, to bastardise Shakespeare.

Another thing which is really interesting about the podcast is the realisation that both sides of the political spectrum have tried to cancel JKR in the US. Because in the early days it was religious conservatives who were trying to cancel her for promoting witchcraft and evil ideas, and now the people trying to cancel her for being "anti trans" are accusing her of being politically aligned with the people who tried to cancel her more than 20 years ago.

I found this podcast too long when I first listened to it and thought it could have done with some cutting down, but there is some very clever editing in it. There's a whole part about the lawsuits trying to have Harry Potter removed from school libraries because of the witchcraft stuff, then you get JKR talking about book burning and banning and saying that the people who do that are always on the wrong side of history and that there is no book she would ever burn, and then it segues neatly into talking about people wanting to remove books with LGBT content from school libraries today.

It's very cleverly done because although this podcast is very much JKR's big self defence, it still does encourage listeners on either side of the debate to have a few "are we the baddies?" moments. Like when it talks about right wing conservatives wanting to ban books with LGBT content from schools. I know there are a couple of those books that I have an issue with (Grandad's Pride, for one, and the one with the illustration of the "trans boy" with all the things they hate about their female body like the "fatty lumps that need to be gone" for another). I believe those books are harmful to children but does wanting them removed from school libraries make me the same as the people who wanted to ban Harry Potter for promoting witchcraft?

It's very thought provoking and I'd really recommend listening if you haven't already.

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MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 15:02

Fionaoffeltrinelli · 12/10/2023 14:01

I feel the same about Jodi Picoult. Used to buy all her books, every time a new one came out I’d be there. Never again. She is a men’s rights activist who has displayed some completely deranged thinking with her comments on X and the harmful and inaccurate ideology she peddles in her latest novel.

Same for Joanne Harris, another angry TRA.

Shame, Jodi Picoult's books are all about nothing being black and white.

You'd think she'd have the necessary critical thinking skills to understand that it's not just about mean nasty TERFs denying the poor vulnerable trans people their human rights.

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Fionaoffeltrinelli · 12/10/2023 14:01

I feel the same about Jodi Picoult. Used to buy all her books, every time a new one came out I’d be there. Never again. She is a men’s rights activist who has displayed some completely deranged thinking with her comments on X and the harmful and inaccurate ideology she peddles in her latest novel.

Same for Joanne Harris, another angry TRA.

IcakethereforeIam · 12/10/2023 12:26

As long as the mantras are not falling from the author's own lips I can live with it.

DWJ is mostly considered a children's author but I still love her books. Sheri Tepper I adore but her books are a bit of a mixed bag quality wise.

teawamutu · 12/10/2023 12:19

The Pratchett stuff is very much encouraged by his daughter, who's full-on SJW, TWAW, bee kiiind and all the rest of it.

Personally, I very much thought TP would have been on the 'accept the truth and work with it and carve your own place' side of things. Not compelled speech and reality denial.

MagpiePi · 12/10/2023 12:10

IcakethereforeIam · 11/10/2023 14:48

There's a few authors I love (Sheri Tepper, Diane Wynne Jones, Terry Pratchett), who are now dead. As sad as I am that I'm unlikely to read new work by them, at least I don't have to worry they're going to pop up spouting 'twaw'.

People do retrofit trans ideology though.
Cheery Littlebottom has been claimed astrans because she rejected traditional unisex dwarf clothing and celebrates being a female dwarf. Plus her character was played by a TW in the tv series that was on.
I don't know if Monstrous Regiment, has been given the same attention, but it wouldn't surprise me.

(I must read some Sheri Tepper and DWJ!)

Rudderneck · 12/10/2023 11:57

MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 10:27

Perhaps there should be a rule that the state should be entitled to claim any income someone manages to earn whilst living at His Majesty's Pleasure.

I suspect this would be challenged legally and not upheld. It might be pragmatically un-ideal as well, it's probably useful to have prisoners motivated to work.

Beowulfa · 12/10/2023 11:53

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

I recently read an excellent book called "Contested Will" by James Shapiro which looks at the history of how and why people believe that the plays couldn't have been written by Mr Shakespeare the pleb from Bumpkin-Upon-Avon. Recommended for learning how educated people can select or ignore evidence as required.

MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 11:50

beguilingeyes · 12/10/2023 11:44

The thing that bugs me about JKR is that now, when she releases a new book, the obsessives will pore over every word looking for 'evidence' of her general evil-ness. Most of them clutching wildly at straws.
I'm halfway through Strike book three and loving it.

Actually, what I find absolutely WILD about this is that they are obsessing about one reference to a male serial killer wearing a woman's coat in Troubled Blood and poring through the early Harry Potter books looking for antisemitic stuff about goblins, and yet they seem to be completely oblivious to all the stuff she is actually saying about gender politics in her other books. It's just that because it's more subtle than a man in a dress, it whizzes about 40,000 feet over their heads.

I'd say that Career of Evil is the first Strike book where it's really noticeable. See what you think she's trying to say about the character named "Tempest", when you get that far.

Troubled Blood is quite obviously not a transphobic book and has nothing to say about trans people, but sometimes I do sometimes wonder whether the bit they are all up in arms about was put in deliberately as a red rag to a bull.

The Ink Black Heart and the Running Grave are absolutely chock full of observations about this particular issue, but no, all these chumps are still frothing about Troubled Blood.

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beguilingeyes · 12/10/2023 11:44

The thing that bugs me about JKR is that now, when she releases a new book, the obsessives will pore over every word looking for 'evidence' of her general evil-ness. Most of them clutching wildly at straws.
I'm halfway through Strike book three and loving it.

MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 10:27

Perhaps there should be a rule that the state should be entitled to claim any income someone manages to earn whilst living at His Majesty's Pleasure.

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MargotBamborough · 12/10/2023 10:27

spookehtooth · 12/10/2023 10:25

That would prompt an ethical dilemma for me, is it right for the state to effectively provide accommodation and support for a criminal to profit massively? That kind of scenario would create a huge stink. Work to pay the bills prevents many working people from doing all sorts of things, and a lot of people are horrified by people deliberately out of work, turning down work, to do similar kinds of things.

Don't go guessing my personal views from that, I'm just describing real world observations of similar(ish) scenarios

Yes, for the record I would not buy a book written by Wayne Couzens.

But I'm sure some people would.

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spookehtooth · 12/10/2023 10:25

MargotBamborough · 11/10/2023 20:04

These two things are not mutually exclusive. Maybe Wayne Couzens will write bestselling crime novels from his prison cell.

That would prompt an ethical dilemma for me, is it right for the state to effectively provide accommodation and support for a criminal to profit massively? That kind of scenario would create a huge stink. Work to pay the bills prevents many working people from doing all sorts of things, and a lot of people are horrified by people deliberately out of work, turning down work, to do similar kinds of things.

Don't go guessing my personal views from that, I'm just describing real world observations of similar(ish) scenarios

LongLizStridesAgain · 12/10/2023 09:43

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

MargotBamborough · 11/10/2023 20:04

Grammarnut · 11/10/2023 19:09

It's coming. Only true crime allowed. Written by the perpetrators - or possibly the police.

These two things are not mutually exclusive. Maybe Wayne Couzens will write bestselling crime novels from his prison cell.

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Grammarnut · 11/10/2023 19:09

ManyRoads · 11/10/2023 11:22

I know, it's mad. And so selective. No one ever had a go at Ruth Rendell for not being a murderer. as far as I know

It's coming. Only true crime allowed. Written by the perpetrators - or possibly the police.