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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conversion Therapy Definitions?

35 replies

WitchyWitcherson · 09/10/2023 18:02

I'm hearing a lot about conversion therapy lately and, as far as I can tell, there are now three definitions;

  1. Conversion therapy meaning a homosexual individual receiving some form of therapy (willingly or unwillingly) to "convert" them into being heterosexual.
  2. Conversion therapy meaning a homosexual individual medically transitioning with the idea that they become a heterosexual individual (because they now present as the opposite sex).
  3. Conversion therapy meaning a person with gender dysphoria receiving psychological support rather than medicalising their dysphoria and medically transitioning.

I can see how 2 is an extrapolation of 1, as in the end the aim is to create a heterosexual individual; and the core reasoning behind why gender ideology is homophobic.

I fail to understand why 3 counts as conversion therapy, or is it because people think people are 'born trans'? Or is 3 not called conversion therapy? I've found these mixed definitions confusing and hard to follow at times!

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BonfireLady · 11/10/2023 09:49

WitchyWitcherson · 09/10/2023 20:43

Thank you! This is what I was wondering, so the third definition is used by TRAs, I was a bit confused about it when I saw it used on a different thread.

As for transing the gay away, is there much evidence that's a motivator for people transing their kids? E.g. in conservative Christian communities in the US?

Helen Joyce's book Trans covers the history of "transing away the gay" in several different cultures. The same histories e.g..hirja in India, ladyboys in Thailand, are often used by TRAs to say that trans people have always existed. And they're right. Looking at the history of it all is really interesting and helped me join up lots of dots.
Hannah Barnes' book Time to Think then also helped me with that continuum (I read them the other way round but the thread of thought still worked) because it brings things up to the modern day and the shift in demographic of gender-questioning children from mostly boys who would grow up to be gay to the dominance of girls who are opting out of girlhood for various different reasons (internalised homophobia still being one, but not necessarily the main one).

WitchyWitcherson · 10/10/2023 08:45

Boomboom22 · 09/10/2023 20:50

Yes in Iran, I'd say yes most definitely for the ex head of mermaids and for JJs parents.

I'll take a look, thanks! (Although trying to avoid internet rabbit holes today as I've got lots of work I should be getting on with 😅)

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Woman2023 · 10/10/2023 07:45

Mermaids dismissed the idea they were "transing away the gay" because a significant percentage of the children they supported identify as gay following transition.

However, as sexual attraction doesn't seem to change with transition, it was much lower than the 90%+ you'd expect if transitioning occurred at the same rate for straight kids as gay ones.

IwantToRetire · 10/10/2023 00:09

in conservative Christian communities in the US?

In anecdotal stories there seems to be a very strong link, which does seem at odds with what you would think conservative christians would accept. (I am sure it has been discussed on other threads, but searching mumsnet is so clumsy)

And there seems to be common link of some of the better known trans women in the UK all recount stories of a highly homophobic father.

Boomboom22 · 09/10/2023 20:50

Yes in Iran, I'd say yes most definitely for the ex head of mermaids and for JJs parents.

WitchyWitcherson · 09/10/2023 20:43

IwantToRetire · 09/10/2023 19:31

1 is the generally accepted meaning

2 is an arguement used by GC feminists as an example of how transitioning is in fact what 1 wants to legislate against

3 is why the Tories didn't go through with proposed legislation.

3 is why Labour is promising to bring in proposed legislation.

Thank you! This is what I was wondering, so the third definition is used by TRAs, I was a bit confused about it when I saw it used on a different thread.

As for transing the gay away, is there much evidence that's a motivator for people transing their kids? E.g. in conservative Christian communities in the US?

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IwantToRetire · 09/10/2023 19:31

1 is the generally accepted meaning

2 is an arguement used by GC feminists as an example of how transitioning is in fact what 1 wants to legislate against

3 is why the Tories didn't go through with proposed legislation.

3 is why Labour is promising to bring in proposed legislation.

CorruptedCauldron · 09/10/2023 19:28

I thought conversion therapy was a terrible cruel and inhuman thing - electronic shock treatment, lobotomies etc. But no, for the trans rights activists, as far as I’m aware, and I could be wrong here, conversion therapy is merely talking. Counselling. Being told that actually you weren’t born in the wrong body, there’s nothing wrong with you, you’re perfect as you are - I believe that’s considered to be conversion therapy. Hence why David Tennant would wear a T-shirt saying “leave trans kids alone you absolute freaks”. Ironic that only a cruel freak would want to help a child by gently talking to them and counselling them, instead of being really ‘kind’ and fast-tracking them on to a harmful and unnecessary medical pathway.

If I was a young person with gender dysphoria, I would rather an attempt was made to ‘convert’ me with counselling and talking therapies rather than rushing in to give me a double mastectomy, testosterone and phalloplasty. The first route is a far more gentle approach than the second route, which is drastic, life-altering and irreversible. You’ve got to be really sure before you go down that path. And let’s not forget, for gay people, the second route is a form of conversion therapy in itself: transing away the gay, as staff at the Tavistock clinic put it.

fedupandstuck · 09/10/2023 18:07

Definitions come from people with different opinions on what is appropriate, hence the mixture of definitions.

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