Dismissed by supposed ally husband

is there a party which actually follows science at the moment? Greens don't, lib dem don't, Labour don't.all because it gets in the way of their male supremacy.

how is 50% of the population a tiny minority?

I can't believe that any rational person can't see that it doesn't just affect a tiny minority, it affects over half the population.

If it didn't affect us, no one would care.

Yes.

Women's rights are important to me.

So are: freedom of speech, thought, belief and expression; rationality; evidence based medecine; children being taught basic science over extreme irrational ideology; politics that is based on collegiate mutual efforts, rather than tribalism; respect for diverse views; tolerance; honesty; common sense; pragmatism; compassion.

Not necessarily in that order.

The issues will, given time, sort themselves out

What, all by themselves, without anyone taking any action? How?

.This is all new and only affects a tiny minority.

redefining an entire category of people ie women so that woman no longer means “adult human female” but instead means “adult human female and men with lady feelings” affects 51% of the population not a tiny minority

at a stroke any and all single sex spaces disappear

A thought.

It's not just "one issue". It's a state of mind. An attitude towards the whole world which categorises a whole sex as unimportant. Jess Phillips may be able to deal with the cognitive dissonance between reading out lists of women's names in Parliament and not taking a clear stand on sex based rights. Others may do this as well. But they only do this because women's sex based rights do not obtrude sufficiently on their consciouness for them to see the enormity of what they are saying. Or maybe they do see that enormity, but choose to ignore it.

I, too, have voted Liberal and then Lib dem since I could vote. But the collective rationality failure in that party (tbh they've always had an oddball fringe, but now it's in the driving seat) now makes it impossible to vote for them - I voted for them because they stood for a genuine liberalism which respected people, and I agreed on their model of politics. I wanted to keep those ideas alive, because I didn't see them in the other parties. That condition no longer obtains!

I have voted Labour in local elections in the past in particular situations where their candidate was clearly the best.

I have never voted Tory. It would be hard to do, but I will do so if Labour doesn't stop bludgeoning women, or show that it is serious about bringing people together to discuss their differences in a civilised fashion. The party has always been authoritarian, which is why I have never been a regular Labour voter. But it's current incarnation is vicious. It runs on sneering and casual contempt for the "out" group, which is not a feature I want to see in a party governing this country. I want to see the Rosie Duffields in the party treated with proper respect.

@Moro93

I agree with everything you say. People who vote tory and think it is some hallowed road to sorting trans issues (whilst ignoring all the other major social issues) are seriously deluded. The tories will shift stance in the blinking of an eye when it suits. The issues will, given time, sort themselves out no matter what government is in power. This is all new and only affects a tiny minority. It has been used to deflect to distract. I can't believe that normally rational people can't see this.

So why don't Labour take the wind out of their sails by showing that they understand what a woman is, they have listened to our concerns and understood them, and they promise to safeguard women and children's rights?

It would be so easy.

Why don't they?

Women represent 51% of the electorate, why don't they just ignore the pronoun people?

@ginasevern I agree. What people need to consider is the rise in these issues that everyone is so concerned about, happened under a Tory government. Do GC people really believe anything will change if they are re-elected? Of course it won’t, it will progress no matter what party is in power. The Tories know exactly what they’re doing and attracted a large amount of voters with their statements, that they have zero intention of following through on.

This poster isn't using 'Tory' to mean 'person who votes Tory'. They are using it as a label, a term of abuse. It doesn't matter how you vote, or even if you're a member of whatever leftish political party, this person is using 'Tory' as the equivalent of 'heretic/heathen/evil'.

This is what tribalism does to an argument.

House building could be tricky given the ridiculous shortage of skilled labour in the country. Maybe I missed the plan for that minor detail?

Reeves said: “We don’t want to be seen, and we’re not, [as] the party to represent those who are out of work.”She added: “Labour are a party of working people, formed for and by working people.”
So Labour isn't for women, or the disabled, or the pensioners, or those who are redundant (like the Wilko workers), or those who can't find a job that isn't zero hours, or those who are carers.

So who are Labour for? House builders?

I've voted Lib Dem in almost every general election since I was old enough to vote.

Labour stand absolutely no chance in my constituency, so the only chance of getting the Tories out, however remote, is to vote Lib Dem.

For context, my constituency has been represented by a Tory MP since it was created over 40 years ago, and the current Tory MP is actually a distant cousin of the previous Tory MP. But in the last election before our previous MP stood down, she came within 1,000 votes of being unseated by the Lib Dem candidate.

So, in my constituency, a vote for anyone except the Lib Dems helps the Tories hold the seat.

The Lib Dems have explicitly said, "Don't vote for us if you don't agree that trans women are women."

What is a gender critical feminist to do?

Holy moly, that's cold.

There is fucking nothing left of disability benefits to crack down on! Bunch of privileged wankers.

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/anger-after-reeves-tells-benefit-claimants-labour-is-not-for-you/

@Moro93

They're not voting tory because they're GC, they are voting tory because that's fundamentally what they are. Otherwise they'd be unable to contain their vomit in the polling booth. Nobody in all seriousness could re-elect this shower on a single issue. Especially when the tories are just as likely to do a U turn if (or more likely when) it suits them. The right wing press have wipped this issue into a mass hysteria frenzy, and it looks like its worked! Well, good luck everyone. Here's to another 5 years.

Don't forget, Reeves has repeatedly said she'll crack down on disability benefits. They won't even drop the 2 child policy! Hoping Labour are better doesn't make it true.

This is very true. Those attacking people for voting Tory on the basis that Labour are going to 'save the NHS' etc, is there evidence they are willing and able to actually do so?

In all fairness, I wasn’t trying to make a reasoned argument, I was just stating my opinion.
I’m actually not close minded at all, I’m just not willing to put energy into having a debate when people have already decided who they’re voting for and nothing anyone says will make a difference.

I’m in disbelief more than anything. As some previous posters have said, you can fight for what you believe regardless of which political party is in power. I can’t wrap my head around people saying they’re voting Tory just because they’re GC. You have to agree with their other policies or surely you wouldn’t consider voting for this reason alone? Not while in everyday life we can see the results of them, in the crumbling NHS and people who are struggling to live (2 of countless problems). It just doesn’t make sense to me.

There is no issue that is more important than women's rights. Labour thinks women are so used to putting everything and everyone else first that we'll vote directly against our own interests and leave them to indulge their trivial luxury beliefs at our expense.

That's before we get into discussing what exactly Labour are going to do different from the Tories. Starmer's flagship of housebuilding is exactly the same as what the Tories have said and let's be honest, neither party will do it anyway. Our Liverpool mayor Steve Rotheram was on politics live and his reaction was gleeful anticipation of 5 years of creating a framework to make a process to plan which sites to use or something (which is par for the course with him but that's another issue). Don't forget, Reeves has repeatedly said she'll crack down on disability benefits. They won't even drop the 2 child policy! Hoping Labour are better doesn't make it true. I'm spoiling my ballot myself.

A party with stiffer principles might have pushed it through.

Yes, and for me this is often when I find Labour more frightening, in some ways.

It's hard, because integrity does require an amount of conviction. But that conviction can very easily tip into righteousness and self justification.

I think pragmatism may in the end become a solid principle for me.

All governments are vulnerable to idealogical sway though. The Tories were proposing to bring in self ID for the whole UK until they saw how unpopular it was. They genuinely thought that was a great idea. That’s ideological sway, and it was not averted idealogically. Just pragmatically. Otherwise the Tories would have taken out the GRA and reformed the EqA. Or given guidance to schools. Etc. They haven’t done any of that that.
Self ID was only averted by practical self serving politics. Thank god for that. A party with stiffer principles might have pushed it through.

If your focus on is on Truth, Reality and Science, you should take a look at what the Science says on global heating / climate change, join XR and never vote for a Tory again in your life.

you can't pick and choose the bits of Science that support your ideological position.

I have never voted Tory. Your assertion is incorrect, and wrapped up in the kind of arrogant Lefty presumptiousness that makes it even harder for me to consider voting Labour.

The Conservative party is centre-right. Labour is centre-left. There really isn't the gulf of policy difference between them that there is in countries that have hard left and right parties in power. I find the extreme language used to describe Tory policy hard to reconcile with modern Britain, having lived in European countries that have an active and popular rightwing movement.

Agree with what is being said about tribalism. The best political solutions arrive because different people with different life experiences and beliefs have considered an issue from a lot of different angles.

Voters in a democracy are going to vote or spoil their vote or not turn up according to their varied values and life experiences. That’s inevitable and healthy.

I agree that it’s good not to berate each other for not making different voting choices (from a purely GC perspective) because I value the cohesion of this discussion community on MN and I can’t replicate it IRL. FWR has great value for women across the political spectrum, for consciousness raising, thinking and debating and for some, organising. That is unique and valuable. Not deterring any woman is pretty crucial.

We’ll have the luxury of party political division once we have won this culture war but for now consensus solely on the GC issues and actions is what is needed I think. And each to her own, on the other political issues of the day.

The most successful campaign groups all take that approach. Stonewall, Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence and all the rest of them don’t care how their supporters vote! They couldn’t care less and with that they have mounted an incredibly successful cross-party appeal to male sex supremacy and male sexual access supremacy. Their politics is now embedded in all the major political parties and our major national institutions. By activists of all political stripes.

So we have a whole mountain range to climb to get women’s rights taken seriously across the political spectrum. It needs all of us on board to get there.