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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans bathroom access - the equality act is 13 years old so why is there such a challenge on it now?

146 replies

Snufflebabe05 · 06/10/2023 23:11

Really trying to understand views I’m hearing online, at work, in media.

Anyone who is transitioning, has transitioned, proposing to transition is legally allowed to use the bathroom which is aligned to the gender they see themselves as. No evidence needed, no proof of medical info etc. This has been the case since the Equality Act launched in 2010. Any business who doesn’t allow this is breaking the law. Unless there is a proportionate and reasonable reason (gym changing rooms can be an example). The majority of locations wouldn’t fall into the exemption though.

Toilets are aligned with a relevant Health and Safety legislation, where bathrooms are provided for men and women, so by gender.

So why is the uproar now? Why is it now that we are hearing about “women-only spaces”? Is is the media? What has changed?

Genuine, honest question as keen to understand.

OP posts:
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ThreeLeggedPug · 07/10/2023 10:34

Snufflebabe05 · 07/10/2023 07:02

Ok. But not everyone agrees that this is the case? As in, many believe that gender and sex are seperate? Is that where the issue is?

I.E - Sex is Male and Female, Gender is Man and Woman?

It’s a minority that believe sex and gender are two different things. Most people don’t but into gender ideology.

MyEyesMyThighs · 07/10/2023 10:32

I think perhaps you need to go back a step from sex/gender and think about what discrimination means in the EA.

A man who develops a gender identity and intends to transition, so meeting requirements for protection, must not be treated lesser than a man without a gender identity/plan to transition.

It does not use women as the reference category when looking at discrimination. Stonewall just wants you to think it does by exploiting the places gender was used in place of sex.

A woman who develops a GI, still has women's rights, such as maternity leave and access to female spaces, they don't lose these with an intention to transition, neither does a man gain them. They relate to your sex.

literalviolence · 07/10/2023 10:28

Boomboom22 · 07/10/2023 09:27

I don't understand why you think man and woman are gendered terms in the first place? They have never been used to mean anything other than sex, hence the terms tw and tm existing.

this is a vital point. there's no such things as trans if man just means someone who feels like a man. There would also never have been a reason to just put urinals in the men's.

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 07/10/2023 10:24

speenmum · 07/10/2023 10:15

Do you need to see someone's cock to know for sure if they are a man in that case? Or do a full analysis of their chromosomes

In the vast majority of cases it is trivially obvious from secondary sex characteristics whether an adult is male (i.e. having passed through male puberty) or female. Why are you pretending otherwise? Butch lesbians really don’t look male.

Helleofabore · 07/10/2023 10:24

speenmum · 07/10/2023 10:15

Obviously I didn't actually think there was an omnipotent being. I was referring in general to how information spreads online

So you were infantilising women or maybe just again projecting your own experience of repeating one person’s opinion as being your own or what?

Because you really seem to very determined to spread your prejudiced view about feminists on threads today. I can only assume that your opinion has been derived from the same process that you accuse feminists of.

Skyellaskerry · 07/10/2023 10:22

Some excellent and thoughtful posts on this thread.

A problem also seems to be where work policies wrongly refer to gender rather than sex being the protected characteristic. At one time the two words were generally used interchangeably, and they haven’t caught up, are stonewalled, or employees don’t feel able to point it out.

MichelleScarn · 07/10/2023 10:21

speenmum · 07/10/2023 10:15

Do you need to see someone's cock to know for sure if they are a man in that case? Or do a full analysis of their chromosomes

Not really, however if they were in front of me without any added accoutrements of hair extensions/wigs/make up/eyelashes and everyone in plain leggings and a tshirt it'd be quite easy to tell someone's sex, it's usually all that stuff there that's the gendering things.

literalviolence · 07/10/2023 10:21

speenmum · 07/10/2023 10:15

Do you need to see someone's cock to know for sure if they are a man in that case? Or do a full analysis of their chromosomes

No. You can tell from their secondary sexual characteristics. There is much evidence to show the accuracy of that.

popebishop · 07/10/2023 10:20

speenmum · 07/10/2023 10:15

Do you need to see someone's cock to know for sure if they are a man in that case? Or do a full analysis of their chromosomes

Why do you keep equating male bodies with being men? Do you not believe a man can be male or female? You seem to fundamentally think that male means man and female means woman yet you are trying to argue with us?

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 07/10/2023 10:18

Apologies OP. Like others, I thought you weren’t posting in good faith, hence being snippy with you. Google sealioning. Your response to RTB has made me reconsider.

Good luck in your workplace discussions - I hope you (or your colleagues) manage to secure penis-free female facilities.

speenmum · 07/10/2023 10:15

Helleofabore · 07/10/2023 09:14

“Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy”

Please don’t project your own shortcomings onto others. No, I seriously don’t assume from appearances.

Besides, didn’t you tell us we all wait for an omnipresent being to tell us what to think and wouldn’t she just be telling us the truth based on her omnipresent powers?

You really cannot have it both ways.

Obviously I didn't actually think there was an omnipotent being. I was referring in general to how information spreads online

speenmum · 07/10/2023 10:15

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2023 09:18

Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy.

I don't subscribe to the existence of "gender" as anything but a social construct based on sex stereotypes. Only a person's sex is relevant.

Do you need to see someone's cock to know for sure if they are a man in that case? Or do a full analysis of their chromosomes

Snufflebabe05 · 07/10/2023 10:13

lady69 · 07/10/2023 09:47

The op seems to want a ball. 🦭

I don’t understand what this means?

Similarly, the earlier post from someone asking “which side am I on”. I’m trying to understand the legal position, and the discussion on why this is challenged. Perhaps this is to form an opinion, I’m not sure yet. But ultimately it’s about trying to understand such a topical issue which is gathering so much media attention, and is being raised in the workplace.

I’ve spent hours researching and thought this forum would help me understand.

OP posts:
LulooLemon · 07/10/2023 10:07

" Gender is ... an outdated set of sex-based stereotypes which should have long ago died out. It certainly is not something on which laws should be based "

Well put @AllProperTeaIsTheft

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 07/10/2023 09:59

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Of course a trans man is biologically a woman but that doesn't stop his gender from being male

Confused Gender is nothing but a collection of stereotypes. It's not an innate thing that everyone has. It's just someone's own perception of the extent to which their own collection of personality traits and aesthetic preferences align with an outdated set of sex-based stereotypes which should have long ago died out. It certainly is not something on which laws should be based, or for which there should be compelled recognition.

WickedSerious · 07/10/2023 09:48

speenmum · 07/10/2023 08:38

Because one person online says that they are concerned because they think trans women are still men and then everyone else blindly repeats the same arguments! There are far bigger issues than this which people could focus on

That's because they are still men,nothing they do will ever change that.

lady69 · 07/10/2023 09:47

The op seems to want a ball. 🦭

Ilefttownonsaturday · 07/10/2023 09:42

https://sex-matters.org/

Consult Sex matters as they're legally trained and can offer you guidance. Lots of information on the website.

Sex Matters

We are campaigning to establish that sex matters in rules, laws, policies, language and culture.

https://sex-matters.org

MockneyReject · 07/10/2023 09:42

Snufflebabe05 · 07/10/2023 06:17

(Tried and failed to quote RedToothbrush) This is a really useful post. Thank you.

Edited

Yes, this.

Boomboom22 · 07/10/2023 09:27

I don't understand why you think man and woman are gendered terms in the first place? They have never been used to mean anything other than sex, hence the terms tw and tm existing.

LorraineBainMcFly · 07/10/2023 09:25

Snufflebabe05 · 07/10/2023 07:42

Not trying to be demanding. I’m finding it really complex and want to be part of the conversation at work and thought I’d seek views on here on the parts of the discussion I am struggling to navigate.

So which 'side' are you arguing for?

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 07/10/2023 09:22

speenmum is making a good example of what I meant about changing language to try to confuse things. Notice the subtle change from trans woman to trans man, also using male as a description of gender rather than sex. Its done on purpose so they can claim common usage, its all Bellshill.

Single sex refers to biological sex

Somanycats · 07/10/2023 09:21

speenmum · 07/10/2023 09:07

Humans are obviously more complex. Do you see horses having a left and right wing political system and a complex economy? Male and female are obviously sex-related words but man and woman can refer to both gender and sex. Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy

So much bollocks. When we meet someone, we ascertain their sex. Quickly and from easy observation. No one considers anyone's gender, because and I cannot be clear enough about this...NO SUCH THING EXiSTS. We have our sex and our personality.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2023 09:19

Mummyoflittledragon · 07/10/2023 02:24

My understanding from what I have read is that the equality act forbids anyone of one sex class from being treated differently from another of their sex class. Ergo a transwoman being biologically male cannot be treated less favourably than any other biological malE.

This.

This in theory it should be discriminatory to force transwomen to not use male facilities. Anyone who harassed or otherwise distressed a transwoman in male facilities should be the one being legally dealt with as transwomen should have equal unfettered access.

Yet this has somehow been twisted into saying that transwomen should have access to female facilities because the male ones are unsafe and it harms transwomens' privacy and dignity.

Without addressing why female facilities were separate from male ones in the first place and ignoring the paradox that males in female facilities undermines female safety, privacy and dignity and the fact that you CAN discriminate against the opposite sex in employment when providing services and access to spaces which are single sex and access may result in undermining safety, privacy and dignity even if they are a GRC holder because this is a legitimate purpose and it risks disproportionate harm.

Harm is generally measured in law in terms of benefits versus costs based on seriousness and scale.

Therefore you would look at potential harms to women: physical safety, mental safety, dignity and privacy, level of risk and numbers effected v the same for transwomen. Keeping in mind here the legal right of transwomen to use male facilities equally free from harassment and fear (which actually doesn't exist for women who might use male facilities in the same way).

One single transwoman using female facilities has a potential effect on ALL women who use those facilities. Both directly and indirectly.

Starting with the indirect, transwomen using female facilities open up female facilities to not just transwomen but all men because women fear challenging them or feel socially unable to. Social convention not law is generally what keeps men out of female facilities. By breaking this convention you make it easier for all males to do so. Women don't unite to kick them out because of blurred boundaries and fear of judgement from other women. Transwomen can pass but equally they can be 6' 2" pot bellied hairy bikers. This physicality is also psychologically intimidating as well as a physical risk to women who can't match the stature and strength of males. (And one of the original reasons for female only facilities being established in the first place). This means when calculating risk, you can not just look at the risk transwomen create, you must also factor in the 'chancer' element.

In terms of privacy and dignity we have other protected characteristics we need to cater for and acknowledge. Notably religious sensibilities. In allowing all males into female facilities by breaking the social convention rules, we make many of these places off limits to women from these religious groups because this is at odds with their social conventions and are unacceptable. They therefore self exclude. This clash of rights needs to be addressed in law. Do women from religious groups have the same rights of access to single sex spaces as other women? Arguably if they are unable to access them due to the presence of men being facilitated the answer is no. (Remember here the transwomen have protected rights to male facilities).

Then there is the element of privacy and dignity. We see in the exemptions for rape crisis centres, transwomen CAN be legally excluded for a job even with a GRC if there is a legitimate aim (to stop the harm of mental distress to a more vulnerable person from a person in a position of authority over intimate and personal matters). We have established the physical differences between men and women and that we need to assess risk not based on the risk of transwomen but on the risk of the broken social convention which allows access by all men. The legitimate aim of single sex facilities is to protect the privacy, safety and dignity of each sex - so what is their point if you allow the social convention to be broken? How does this affect privacy, dignity and safety? Are women more or less vulnerable by breaking the convention? Is this an equal situation for men / transwomen? Remember legally transwomens' sex is male so whilst you consider their position separately to men you also need to consider the position including them with men. Is it sex discrimination to disadvantage women's safety, dignity and privacy and access to public facilities if you allow males to break social convention? Is there a risk of causing distress or worse? If a woman is flashed by a penis this is regarded as a sexual offence. So what's the situation when it's a transwoman in a female facility? We regard the act of flashing as distressing and causing harm in one scenario in our society but so why not the other? It's legitimate for any woman to feel threatened in this situation for this reason. It is not something you can just dismiss as prudishness or bigotry. The role of intent is important, however if you were unintentionally flashing your neighbours by undressing by your window, you could well get a visit by the local police for distressing your neighbour. And we actually can't eliminate that there is an intention to distress women and to get a sexual kick either. This remains important and can not be ignored.

In terms of privacy and dignity of transwomen, there is an argument to be had about how being in male facilities may affect them. But this doesn't override female dignity and privacy. In law, BOTH must be considered.

And when you consider impact, and the point about social convention allowing access of all males not just transwomen you hit an issue. It's. NOT proportional to allow access. It should not be being done and facilitated by work places.

Work places should be instead making 'reasonable adjustments' to accommodate the privacy and dignity of transwomen. That's the provision of gender neutral facilities IN ADDITION to but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF one sex over the other. Therefore you can't convert one set of women's toilets to gender neutral but not the men's because women lose. Equally if facilities are gender neutral they must cater for the needs of both sexes taking into account privacy and dignity. Therefore in theory all gender neutral spaces must be closed cubicle with no urinals (transwomen using the urinal whilst arguing about their privacy and dignity are taking the piss quite literally - if they are willing to do this in full view of any member of staff in one changing room but not the men's you have a worrying issue). So you shouldn't be just converting the males either - you should be removing urinals from gender neutral facilities whilst maintaining (at least) equal facilities for women (women need more toilet provision than men - this is recognised to the point that portaloo hire companies factor male:female ratios when calculating appropriate numbers for festival - this should be being done when building new workplaces but it's not.).

The above also applies to transmen but the impact is lesser (go through the steps above applying to transmen and you work out why - I'm not going to do it here) but still exists.

Saying you 'just want to pee' is a way of deliberately down playing all the above considerations and saying the right to privacy and dignity of others is not something I respect.

Think about that. Someone saying they don't respect the privacy and dignity of others whilst demanding their own. Does that strike you as consistent with the Equality Act right there in that one little statement?

The government really needs to tackle this head on.

We absolutely should not have situations where women can not request a female member of staff for intimate health care. They certainly should not be told they will not be treated. This is discrimination and the response is not proportionate. Employee rights don't trump rights under the Equality Act.

I actually hope we get a test case against leisure centres at some point because we desperately need one.

It's really not cool how the law has been misrepresented.