Is it even possible to debate the trans-narrative outside MN?

I suppose transitioning at birth is what John Money claimed he did when he mutilated an infant - that didn't end well. It certainly didn't produce an adult woman decades later.

It's interesting that all the discussion so far has been steered towards men identifying as transwomen encroaching on women's spaces, with very few non- 'bathroom' examples, never mind sports, quotas etc etc.

For me the greatest horror produced by the genderist movement is the extent to which physically healthy young women are being encouraged to drug and mutilate themselves in pursuit of something illusory. The long-term injuries, both physical and mental that they suffer need to be discussed openly and often and they aren't being. It's obviously a lucrative industry, and I wonder whether the constant dragging the subject back to men and the desires of transwomen isn't at least in part to protect the cash cow.

I remember the days when young women in distress in adolescence starved and cut themselves - weird that that seems benign in contrast to what is happening now.

Certainly, it's used as a dehumanising slur.

Content warning, highly distressing site: https://terfisaslur.com/

Mavis said
'That’s not an extreme position, and it involves no hatred or phobia, I just don’t believe humans - or any other mammal - can change sex.'

Reality backs up your belief Mavis. In the whole history of the existance of mammals, none have changed sex.

To clarify what would have to happen for a mammal to change sex. A mammal who's body is organised around the ability to produce one type of gametes (eggs or sperm) would need to change to being organised around the ability to produce the opposite gamete.

In the whole history of evolution this metamorphosis has not happened to a mammal.

Humans are mammals.

PS, for the surgery fans out there. No, implanting the reproductive system from a female person into a male person doesn't count. It would also be an immoral thing to do IMO due to the dangers of such a surgery.

The question of WHY this one issue is supposed to be dealt with so differently than everything else keeps coming to mind. Why such exceptionalism, that isn't expected or demanded from anything else?

I keep thinking, who benefits? Certainly not the children struggling with their pubescent bodies changing, in a world where they are told they can be whatever they want and anyone who questions them is 'literally killing them', that can't be good for their mental health. Nor can the idea that your whole identity and sense of self is so dependent on everyone else reflecting your imagined self back at you - that's a recipe for disaster.
It's certainly not benefitting women and girls who are being bullying and pushed out of their legitimate spaces and afraid of pushing back for fear of being labelled monsters.

The only ones really benefitting here are the middle aged men indulging their fetishes. And maybe the pharmaceutical companies cashing in on vulnerable young people dependent on hormones.

The rest of us are pawns in their game.

So it seems not even self id but some random Dr deciding. How have we got here? I have 11 and 12 year old girls telling me in pshe they are not sure they should be a girl. Wtf? There's no such thing as a way to be a girl, you just are. Bodies are not wrong.

Recently a transwoman was on this claiming the Dr told them they were trans and they didn't know themselves, they have literally been fed this to explain away their anxiety or depression. It is horrific. They were totally on board with this saying sometimes the professionals can tell more than the patients. Making unhappy people medicated for life for what? Money to the pharma industry?

It's always an interesting comparison when you consider how gender dysphoria is supposed to be treated as opposed to how other forms of body dysmorphia are treated.
The affirmation only model does far more harm than good. Challenging disordered thinking is part of any good treatment model, however we are now told that this is discrimination and bigotry.

How far is society supposed to go to indulge a persons delusion?

Could you imagine someone who was severely anorexic being told by a clinician 'yes, yes, you're still too fat, keep starving yourself'. It's bizarre.

Come on girls. What Speen meant was a male person who ‘is’ now a female person. She means AMAB , not cut the 🐓off the moment they emerge from the womb. (although I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the more convinced supporters are considering it). ‘ she sat low, so she must be a girl, really’.

You are really very offensive Speen.
How dare you call people cis for a start, no fucking way do I subscribe to stereotypical be kind shit for a start and that doesn't make me a man.
Your view is very homophobic and you think men dressing up as women turn into women and are no longer dangerous. You are a misogynist. I'm quire upset by the way you portray gc people which really just means recognises biology and hates stereotypes.
GI is regressive and damaging to all, there's no such thing as boy toys or girl clothes ffs.

@speenmum I’m a woman - not a “Cis” woman, thank you, I don’t need any prefixes, “woman” is the only word I need - and I don’t want men in my single-sex toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, or sports.

That’s not an extreme position, and it involves no hatred or phobia, I just don’t believe humans - or any other mammal - can change sex. Trans women are not women, they are men, and that’s why I don’t want them in places I might be naked or vulnerable.

I don’t care what people wear or how they present, I just don’t want men in my single-sex spaces. “Good men stay out so bad men stand out”, as the saying goes.

If your thinking is based on a lie, then the entire thought process that stems from that lie is fundamentally flawed.

I think the word TERF is the villain of the piece

It makes no sense Wicked that’s why we’re 🤯

How does a baby pretend to live as a male? They have no agency. The only way would be for that to be imposed on them by a parent which is so wrong where would we even start??

I guess traditionally the socialist ideal is to support the rights of the most oppressed, so the instinct is to indulge people who claim to be born in the wrong body. Those who've never questioned their identity feel sorry for anyone in this situation so assume that anyone daring to point out that it's a mental illness that can be dealt with using therapy and not surgery and cross sex hormones is seen as abhorrent. Then compounded by the right wing orgs in the US protesting outside schools, the mainstream press, who want to look unbiased can't report on it without giving what's considered (wrongly) hate speech a platform. As usual, women's rights are collateral.

Born male but pretending to be female for most of their life?

Yes, I am a bit stuck there, too.

Unless pp is referring to someone with a Difference of Sexual Development? Of course, this doesn't involve any sort of 'transition', though.

reddit.com/r/RealLesbiansRealWomen/s/QYO0RumPhM

I think that in real life many people have measured views on this topic: they don't wish people who are trans any harm and think they should present as they wish, but at the same time thy know full well the difference between men and women and don't want to see men in women's spaces (loos and changing rooms for example).

The problems is that political correctness is forcing everyone to toe the line for fear of getting in trouble in places like the workplace for simply holding perfectly acceptable views.

So you are left with the impression that the majority agrees with the views of trans activists when frankly I don't think that is the case at all.

The fact that the debate has been shut down so widely is a concern.

Women's concerns need to be listened too.

I must say my own views have shifted in the past few months. I have a close trans friend and I have always been very supportive throughout her transition. I have seen some of the abuse she has received from men when out and about and no one should have to go through this. I know that she is now much happier with herself after transitioning. So I would not want to criticise anyone who goes though the process, which is really long and tricky one.

However as a victim of sexual abuse I am also very uncomfortable with men who present themselves as women using female loos and changing rooms. I also think that people should be entitled to have an opinion on the subject and to express it.

For the first time this week I got extremely uncomfortable when faced with a man who was wearing a dress in a charity shop: he was wearing a pink mesh dress which literary showed almost everything. The rest of his appearance was fully masculine. Frankly to me that is just pure exhibitionism and not what I went to see while shopping in broad daylight.

I still can’t get past “transitioned at birth” - what does that even mean???

Nope,they're still men.

Well now you're just making no sense.
People don't transition to become women (but you know that really).
Men are not women and will never be.

because trans women are women so can go in women's spaces

In what way is a transwoman a woman? What things does a transwoman share with a woman that means they are in the same classification?

DH is a man so no. But if it was a wife who had transitioned from male at birth then yes. because trans women are women so can go in women's spaces

And this is the crux of the issue. Many do not agree with that statement but it's impossible to debate when it's being stated as fact.

Have you got that evidence I asked you for about how the risk of sexual offences for all male people in the UK is reduced by transition please?

Otherwise you are continuing to advocate for a reduction in safeguarding procedures for a group of male people without evidence and continuing to put women and children in harmful situations.