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Original poster

Irish University says it is unlawful not to use preferred pronouns

37 replies

Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 08:23

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/10/05/lecturer-objects-to-universitys-gender-identity-policy-which-describes-refusal-to-use-pronouns-as-unlawful/
There is a certain irony that the university states that this compelled speech is being done to make everyone feel comfortable.

While it is obvious from the article that money is a motivating factor, it is sickening that so many of the people pushing this are women who are willing to denounce other women who are unwilling to comply.

IANAL but I think their interpretation of the law is incorrect but I expect that the University will dig their heels in. I can't see the Minister for Higher Education or the Minister for Equality stepping in to rectify the issue.
Perhaps the only encouraging aspect is that the IT actually reported this.

Lecturer objects to university’s gender identity policy which describes refusal to use pronouns as ‘unlawful’

South East Technological University launches new gender expression and identity policy

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/10/05/lecturer-objects-to-universitys-gender-identity-policy-which-describes-refusal-to-use-pronouns-as-unlawful

OP posts:
Original poster
Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 11:32

Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 10:34

https://twitter.com/ColetteColfer/status/1709821035007132021?t=qmyu6Xc47MdloH5iCzvyLA&s=19
I have just read this tweet from Colette Colfer.
Am I being a little cynical in thinking that a government department that has the Progress flag in its social media profile might not be giving the the impression of impartiality.

For some reason I can't edit this. I wanted to give an example of my thoughts on this.
If I felt like I was being discriminated on religious grounds as a Muslim, for example, and I went to the Dept of Equality SM to check my rights, only to find a picture of the Cross or the Pope, then I think I might not be confident that they would be impartial as it would give the impression that the Catholic religion was favoured.

"All animals are equal but some are more equal than others"
George Orwell
Animal Farm.

OP posts:
Original poster
Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 11:21

My very amateur interpretation would be that it should be easy enough to show that the gender reference was intended to be sex as there have been several cases, for example, where women have won discrimination cases because they were pregnant. Your gender identity doesn't affect your ability to become pregnant but your biological sex does.

It is a worry to see the attempt to see the article from the law society as it would appear to be removing protections for women and prioritising protections for gender identity.

OP posts:
Farmageddon · 05/10/2023 10:57

Yes, I think gender was initially supposed to be referring to sex without actually referring to it. Which is a problem because laws are supposed to be specific, otherwise they are open to all sorts of interpretation as we are now seeing.

So gender is the protected characteristic, and the examples given are really issues that women face of discrimination, but you can get a GRA to be whatever gender you please so it's all a bit of legal nonsense really.

The bigger issue is that most Irish people aren't aware of all this - and I think have a mistaken belief that our laws should be/ are robust, were clearly thought through and could hold up to proper scrutiny. Apparently not.

I would love someone to take a legal case to show up the legal fiction inherent in this.

Unfortunately, we suffer from extreme apathy in this country about many things - 'ah shure it'll be grand', which doesn't serve us well in times like this.

Original poster
Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 10:34

https://twitter.com/ColetteColfer/status/1709821035007132021?t=qmyu6Xc47MdloH5iCzvyLA&s=19
I have just read this tweet from Colette Colfer.
Am I being a little cynical in thinking that a government department that has the Progress flag in its social media profile might not be giving the the impression of impartiality.

https://twitter.com/ColetteColfer/status/1709821035007132021?s=19&t=qmyu6Xc47MdloH5iCzvyLA

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 05/10/2023 10:23

Always strikes me as bizarre that my right to say "Jesus was not the Messiah" or "Ganesh is a better God to worship than Allah" is protected, but my right to say "I see a man" is not just removed, but punished.

Original poster
Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 10:18

Farmageddon · 05/10/2023 09:42

Unfortunately in Ireland we are on the back foot already because 'gender identity' is a protected characteristic in our Equality laws, not sex.

As I said above IANAL but I wonder about this.
This is from the IHREC
"Discrimination on the ‘gender ground’ happens where there is less favourable treatment of one person compared to another, because one is a woman and the other is a man.
Pregnant women or women on maternity leave are also protected under the gender ground.
Under EU law, a transgender person who experiences discrimination arising from their gender reassignment, or transition, is also protected under the gender ground"

Gender is in the Equality Act but was in it long before Self ID became legal or before gender identity was widely spoken of.
I think the reference to gender was intended as a protection for women and was a polite term for sex. I suspect that there is some uncertainty about the law around the term gender and whether it was intended to protect sex.

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/2023/july/ihrec-wants-equality-law-to-cover-new-grounds

"IHREC’s submission has also recommended changes to the existing gender and family-status grounds.

It wants the gender ground in the equality acts to be amended to include explicit reference to, and define, gender identity, gender expression, and sex characteristics."
Interesting to see they don't mention sex just sex characteristics.
I read that as saying that they are worried that the Equality Act as it stands does reflect that the reference to gender actually means sex and they want to change it to give gender identity priority over sex (ie. women's rights). "

I think that they are worried that a legal challenge would clarify that gender was intended to mean sex and they are trying to change it before that happens

IHREC wants equality law to cover new grounds

The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (IHREC) has called for a change in equality legislation to include discrimination on new grounds of socio-economic status and criminal conviction.

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/2023/july/ihrec-wants-equality-law-to-cover-new-grounds

OP posts:
Pudmyboy · 05/10/2023 10:00

Pudmyboy · 05/10/2023 09:38

Is this irony?

Show quote history

Oops sorry I posted this before reading the article, @Villagetoraiseachild I agree with you!

Farmageddon · 05/10/2023 09:42

Unfortunately in Ireland we are on the back foot already because 'gender identity' is a protected characteristic in our Equality laws, not sex.

IslaWinds · 05/10/2023 09:40

She’s toast. Jordan Peterson fell on that sword years ago in Canada. Now he’s apparently a far right Neo Nazi and misogynist.

Farmageddon · 05/10/2023 09:39

Hi OP, this was also posted in the Gender Critical thread on Craicnet - I agree it's a load of bollocks, but it would appear that many Irish Universities are deeply embedded in this nonsense.
Interestingly, from that article it would appear that Athena Swan is sort of like a Stonewall champions thing - where institutions have to adhere to the charter to gain accreditation.

Pudmyboy · 05/10/2023 09:38

Villagetoraiseachild · 05/10/2023 09:28

She makes some good points and is stunning and brave for doing so

Is this irony?

Villagetoraiseachild · 05/10/2023 09:28

She makes some good points and is stunning and brave for doing so