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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irish University says it is unlawful not to use preferred pronouns

37 replies

Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 08:23

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/10/05/lecturer-objects-to-universitys-gender-identity-policy-which-describes-refusal-to-use-pronouns-as-unlawful/
There is a certain irony that the university states that this compelled speech is being done to make everyone feel comfortable.

While it is obvious from the article that money is a motivating factor, it is sickening that so many of the people pushing this are women who are willing to denounce other women who are unwilling to comply.

IANAL but I think their interpretation of the law is incorrect but I expect that the University will dig their heels in. I can't see the Minister for Higher Education or the Minister for Equality stepping in to rectify the issue.
Perhaps the only encouraging aspect is that the IT actually reported this.

Lecturer objects to university’s gender identity policy which describes refusal to use pronouns as ‘unlawful’

South East Technological University launches new gender expression and identity policy

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/10/05/lecturer-objects-to-universitys-gender-identity-policy-which-describes-refusal-to-use-pronouns-as-unlawful

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Genesis1v27 · 07/10/2023 22:01

And, Colette Colfer was interviewed on Waterford Local Radio yesterday, the programme is Déise Today on this page, the segment starts at 10:24 (a direct link to the MP3).

Genesis1v27 · 07/10/2023 21:48

Also, in case anyone wasn't aware, Colette Colfer has published a number of great pieces on gender ideology in Ireland on her Substack site.

Genesis1v27 · 07/10/2023 21:37

Leo Varadkar was asked whether "preferred pronouns" are a matter for the law at the EU summit yesterday. This Irish Times report is not behind a paywall, so I'll post the article in full:

Taoiseach urges people to be ‘more relaxed’ about preferred pronouns

‘I can’t imagine us ever prosecuting anyone for using the wrong pronouns,’ says Varadkar after lecturer raises concerns about university policy

Everyone should try to use people’s preferred pronouns and try not to take offence if people make mistakes, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said.

Mr Varadkar was asked about whether the law should deal with correct pronouns after a lecturer said she would refuse to comply with a policy by the South East Technological University (Setu) because it described a refusal to use the preferred pronouns of staff or students as an example of unlawful discrimination or harassment.

“To be honest, I can’t imagine us ever prosecuting anyone for using the wrong pronouns,” said Mr Varadkar on Friday.

“I do think we all need to be a little bit more relaxed about these things though and maybe a little bit more mature about it,” he said.

“Everyone should use the right pronouns, the pronouns that somebody identifies with, but bear in mind from time to time, people are confused, they just don’t get it right. I think we need to not automatically take offense if somebody uses the wrong pronouns. Unless they set out deliberately offend, and I think that’s very rare.”

The Taoiseach was speaking at an EU summit in the Spanish city of Granada after being asked about Setu’s new gender identity and expression policy which was officially launched at an event on its Waterford campus on Wednesday.

The university said it was aimed at creating an inclusive atmosphere where all staff and students are free from discrimination or harassment.

Colette Colfer, a lecturer in world religions at Setu, said while she had no personal objection to using anyone’s preferred pronoun or name, her main issue of concern was the compulsory nature of the policy.

The document states that Setu is committed to non-discrimination, equality and the maintenance of safe and collegial working and learning spaces. It adds that the policy, which is intended to cover face-to-face interactions and online communications, was drawn up recognising the legal and regulatory framework within which the university operates.

It says the policy was drafted with regard to all applicable laws, such as the Employment Equality Acts, and states that examples of unlawful discrimination or harassment because of a person’s gender identity include, among others, “refusing to address a person by their correct gender pronoun or new preferred name”.

Ms Colfer said she was concerned over what appeared to be a misinterpretation of equality laws and said many other staff shared her views but were afraid to speak out.

“I support the broad aim of the policy, but not the methods. All students should be treated fairly and equally. But the methods of this policy could result in discrimination against those who do not subscribe to gender identity theory and who believe that biology is more relevant than gender identity in matters such as women’s sports and changing rooms,” she said.

To me, he is saying that deliberately not using someone's "preferred pronouns" or preferred name is (or will be) unlawful, and a person may be liable to Garda investigation and prosecution (!!) for not doing so. And obviously employers will be able to take disciplinary action against employees who breach a policy like the one SETU have introduced.

Saying "I can’t imagine us ever prosecuting anyone for using the wrong pronouns" shows he can pretend to have a very limited imagination when it suits him, but the threat is clear.

Villagetoraiseachild · 06/10/2023 20:14

No worries, Pudmyboy.
Trying to reclaim the words stunning and brave.
I think this woman is extraordinarily courageous and her arguments have some nuance in a debate that has become so polarised, reactive and entrenched.
I wonder if The Countess in Ireland have commented on this, their founder has a legal background.
Anyway, best of luck to her.

Duffdee · 06/10/2023 14:48

Not to worry. The U.K. will no doubt be in exactly the same position soon enough when feminists elect the Labour Party and they introduce similar laws here. For some reason smaller countries just seem to do things quicker while in larger countries things seem to take a little more time for some reason.

ArabellaScott · 06/10/2023 14:04

This is so chlling.

Pudmyboy · 06/10/2023 11:40

Cailin66 · 06/10/2023 09:31

Colette Colfer is stunning and brave. She has been so for a very long time. And if you read the full article you will see that she is likely to lose her employment for this. She already mentioned her job was on the line for her stance on this 6 months ago.

Yes I noted this after reading the article properly, and have apologised for my error to the poster

Cailin66 · 06/10/2023 09:31

Pudmyboy · 05/10/2023 09:38

Is this irony?

Colette Colfer is stunning and brave. She has been so for a very long time. And if you read the full article you will see that she is likely to lose her employment for this. She already mentioned her job was on the line for her stance on this 6 months ago.

Raineverywhere · 05/10/2023 21:01

Yeah, I have a feeling Leo wouldn't be so keen to bring in his hate speech legislation if this sort of thing was covered already...

Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 20:05

Raineverywhere · 05/10/2023 15:27

Personally, I'd take that as a no, it's not against the law.

https://twitter.com/ColetteColfer/status/1710004176451670204?t=ejbd74O4KhdCj_ljX2XDMA&s=19

https://twitter.com/ColetteColfer/status/1710004176451670204?s=19&t=ejbd74O4KhdCj_ljX2XDMA

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JellySaurus · 05/10/2023 16:32

Random italics.

JellySaurus · 05/10/2023 16:31

individuals have the right to determine and affirm their gender

Fair enough. But why is that interpreted as individuals have the obligation to affirm others' genders?

Individuals have the right to determine and affirm their personal beliefs, insofar as their actions do not impact upon others.

Cailleach1 · 05/10/2023 16:01

Ok, So laws are case specific about everything then? Could you tell a Garda they cannot say that you breaking into someone's house and robbing all their stuff is unlawful in this case? Or, indeed any other crime is only determined to be illegal is on a case by case basis. Tear up all legislation, or just say it 'MAY' be applicable.

Courtesy, eh? It would have been courtesy to not pass laws that discriminate and endanger women and children. It would have been courtesy to respectfully (or otherwise responsibly) carry out the State's redress for the legacy of survivors of the mother and baby homes. I suppose they are counting on the fact that the survivors will pass away before the state (and Ministers etc.) can be held to account. So the evidence will be sealed for 30 years, and Minister O'Gorman in situ over that too.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40069511.html

One such as myself may conclude that these faux courtesy 'dudes' are not at all courteous. They like this new pulpit from which to admonish people.

Mother and Baby Homes records to be sealed for 30 years as controversial bill passes

Controversial bill will seal records for 30 years

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40069511.html

Raineverywhere · 05/10/2023 15:27

Personally, I'd take that as a no, it's not against the law.

Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 15:20

Cailleach1 · 05/10/2023 15:11

Did Minister O'Gorman give a clear answer, I wonder?

Wasn't there an attempt to force this on the Gardaí? I thought they had successfully kicked to touch the 'Gender Identity in the Workplace Plan'. It would have given rise to disciplinary measures if they correctly sexed misgendered someone.

Now force it on the young (and those who want to stay in pensionable jobs).

He didn't answer the question.

https://twitter.com/griptmedia/status/1709933771364143458?t=k9mpQ-y5LhmxjjG-eF5aQ&s=19

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Cailleach1 · 05/10/2023 15:17

Yes, don't open that curtain in Oz! The pretence vs the reality. If he (I'm taking a punt here, O'Gorman could identify as a frog for all I know) can't rationally defend something, the heat would have been generated to distract from the fact it is all based on nonsense.

Farmageddon · 05/10/2023 15:13

Did Minister O'Gorman give a clear answer, I wonder?

Given it was described as a heated exchange I doubt it. The government seem to want to ride roughshod through common sense to push this shite, they don't seem to like any logical criticisms or questioning.

Cailleach1 · 05/10/2023 15:11

Did Minister O'Gorman give a clear answer, I wonder?

Wasn't there an attempt to force this on the Gardaí? I thought they had successfully kicked to touch the 'Gender Identity in the Workplace Plan'. It would have given rise to disciplinary measures if they correctly sexed misgendered someone.

Now force it on the young (and those who want to stay in pensionable jobs).

Farmageddon · 05/10/2023 15:05

Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 14:58

So ridiculous - how many of these bullshit laws are they going to enact without proper public consultation?
There is not a groundswell of people clamouring for the 'updating' of our hate crime laws, this has come from somewhere else.

Raineverywhere · 05/10/2023 15:03

It's sad because when the Athena SWAN Charter was originally established in 2005 its aim was to recognise committment by institutes to advancing women's careers in science, tech, engineering, medicine and maths.
Other disciplines and commitment to tech and support staff was later added in 2015. Also at this time the emphasis was changed to promote gender equality more broadly and not just barriers to the progression of women...

And now it seems to be working against GC women.

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Abhannmor · 05/10/2023 13:21

Ah , God be with the days when you looked up Gender in the dictionary and it said : Sex.

Now the TRAs can fuzz up the lines. Colette is a very brave woman. We need a bit less ' Ah shure twill be grand ' and a lot more ' It's a bit mad , Ted!'

Cailleach1 · 05/10/2023 12:09

One of the principles it commits higher education institution to achieving is “fostering collective understanding that individuals have the right to determine and affirm their gender, and to implementing inclusive and effective policies and practices that are cognisant of the lived experiences and needs of trans and non-binary people”.

Forgot this bit. I don't think there is any real definition of 'gender' as it pertains to this current 'gender identity' dystopian fad. It is sort what you are feeling in your water. What is trans or non-binary people? Like everyone else.

Cailleach1 · 05/10/2023 12:03

SETU’s new policy forms part of a wider bid to secure more advanced Athena Swan Charter accreditation, which is part of official higher education policy in Ireland.

The charter was launched in Ireland in 2015 with a specific remit to address gender equality and has since expanded to include consideration of the experience of trans staff and students. Higher Education Authority policies require attainment of Athena Swan certification for universities to be eligibile for State research funding.

This is what is driving this bs. The tick box bs. Make it allegedly more inclusive for those who wanted to be treated as special, whilst doing more to exclude women and girls from places designed to be safer, and safe sports etc. It is a deceitful crock to again enable a societal bashing of women and girls so that the lads can do as they please. Some figurative bashing, but also some literal as in sports or violent men in women's refuges etc. Not forgetting males in prison for sexual offences causing distress to the female inmates. Those male sex offender who got to have a bit of sport at the women's expense, and were allowed to do this by the Irish state.

Farmageddon · 05/10/2023 11:47

Poshspicebag · 05/10/2023 11:32

For some reason I can't edit this. I wanted to give an example of my thoughts on this.
If I felt like I was being discriminated on religious grounds as a Muslim, for example, and I went to the Dept of Equality SM to check my rights, only to find a picture of the Cross or the Pope, then I think I might not be confident that they would be impartial as it would give the impression that the Catholic religion was favoured.

"All animals are equal but some are more equal than others"
George Orwell
Animal Farm.

Yes exactly, it's waffling on about equality whilst clearly prioritising one particular belief system.
Unfortunately, there has been a very effective 'bait and switch' regarding the pride flag in recent years, it no longer really reprasents gay and lesbian people, instead many 'gay rights' organisations prioritise the TQIA, particularly the Ts who are biologically male.

But if you question anything about pride you are automatically labelled as homophobic. It's been a very effective strategy.

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