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Original poster

Trans women to be banned from female hospital wards

407 replies

Imnobody4 · 02/10/2023 22:41

Yes¡ Just done a little victory dance. I hope it really is as good as it sounds.

https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1708956051683295391?t=daMUSC8mbF_9sSi9ynIsIg&s=19

On Tuesday, Steve Barclay will announce proposals to push back against “wokery” in the health service that has led to women’s rights being increasingly sidelined.The changes would give men and women the right to be cared for on wards only shared by people of their own biological sex, and to have intimate care provided by those of the same sex.Mr Barclay said the plan would mean the return of “a common-sense approach to sex and equality”, ensuring that women’s dignity was protected and their voices heard.The proposals follow concerns from patients and staff about biological men being allowed on to women’s hospital wards. In 2021, NHS guidance said trans patients could be placed on single-sex wards on the basis of the gender with which they identified.

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15
EarthSight · 03/10/2023 20:15

It’s generally the centre left that has embraced gender ideology to a greater extent

Oh bloodyhell, stop with the defensiveness. Your calling the kettle black.

EasternStandard · 03/10/2023 20:01

EarthSight · 03/10/2023 19:56

What a strange and defensive reply 🙄I didn't say it was better elsewhere.

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Not really. If people think what’s going on here is particularly bad for women it’s worth looking at what is happening o/s

It’s generally the centre left that has embraced gender ideology to a greater extent

In politics and the media

EarthSight · 03/10/2023 19:56

EasternStandard · 03/10/2023 13:51

Do you really look at SNP and Wales and think that’s looking better?

And to the left governments in western democracies. Which one would you like to emulate? Canada? NZ? Other

Show quote history

What a strange and defensive reply 🙄I didn't say it was better elsewhere.

GodDammitCecil · 03/10/2023 19:51

And honestly - actual women coming on here to say their transwoman friend ‘lives as a woman’…?

You know they don’t, because you know what ‘living as a woman’ actually entails.

I don’t understand the cognitive dissonance that is not only so vitally integral to this house of cards standing, but that is mindlessly accepted by so many people.

The Emperor’s New Clothes was once just a ludicrous fairy tale - it’s literally mind boggling to watch so-called intelligent people play it out on a global scale in real life.

IdleAnimations · 03/10/2023 19:39

GodDammitCecil · 03/10/2023 19:28

‘Living as a women’ when you’re a transwoman boils down to putting on a dress and make-up, growing your hair and maybe some fake breasts and then insisting on access to women’s single-sex spaces.

Living as an actual woman means dealing with monthly menstruation for decades, contraception to avoid becoming pregnant - or, if you do - pregnancy/abortion/miscarriage/childbirth/breastfeeding, cervical smears, being at risk from violence and sexual assault and generally being oberpowered by physically stronger people with penises, the pay gap, mammograms, peri-menopause, menopause, wife work, child care, elderly care, the list goes on and on.

Transwomen don’t have the first clue as to what ‘living as a woman’ actually means. And I don’t see any of them rushing to do any of those things.

Being a transman means opting out of those things.

Spot on. What they ‘live as’ is a shallow stereotype of what a man believes a woman is and how she lives. It’s male objectification without any of the hidden pain or suffering women carry day to day.

In their defence, ‘trans men’ do the same thing. Often a lumberjack shirt, bum fluff on the chin and a stereotyped ‘lads’ personality. Grotesquely I’ve also seen many appropriating the gay mens movement and bringing back the f slur and being overly sexual. This has deeply offended many gay men I know as their spaces are being infiltrated too.

What I’ve learnt about this movement is it’s steeped in sexism and clear misunderstanding from both sexes on how the opposite sex live and what they feel. The kindest thing for us as a society to do is to stop living in a fantasy land and get these people the mental health help they need.

GodDammitCecil · 03/10/2023 19:28

‘Living as a women’ when you’re a transwoman boils down to putting on a dress and make-up, growing your hair and maybe some fake breasts and then insisting on access to women’s single-sex spaces.

Living as an actual woman means dealing with monthly menstruation for decades, contraception to avoid becoming pregnant - or, if you do - pregnancy/abortion/miscarriage/childbirth/breastfeeding, cervical smears, being at risk from violence and sexual assault and generally being oberpowered by physically stronger people with penises, the pay gap, mammograms, peri-menopause, menopause, wife work, child care, elderly care, the list goes on and on.

Transwomen don’t have the first clue as to what ‘living as a woman’ actually means. And I don’t see any of them rushing to do any of those things.

Being a transman means opting out of those things.

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 19:09

I don't care if the haystack has a needle in it or not. No haystacks in women's spaces.

IncomingTraffic · 03/10/2023 19:07

PaperWalkAndTalk · 03/10/2023 17:51

I have a friend who is a straw-man where exactly should he go?

Not good enough unless you have multiple strawmen friends. All of whom have had the full range of surgical interventions and are indistinguishable from women.

They can all be treated on the straw ward.

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 18:59

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2023 17:45

If hospitals were being built to need them how many women's toilets to men's toilets would there be?

Even when working out how many portaloos you need for a festival, portaloo companies (thanks world scout jamboree for drawing my attention to this) have a formula which includes consideration for the number of women (women need considerably more provision) and the age of users (those who are elderly or very young need more provision) are calculated.

But in buildings we are stuck with this data idea of 50:50 at best and then women's facilities also get the shitty end of the shit when providing gendered (mixed sex) facilities.

It's like the dark ages and hardly progressive.

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Actually H&S regs stipulate specific ratios of toilets, dependent on sex.

Women are supposed to get more provision.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/20/made

Consultation on 'gender neutral' toilets here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-technical-consultation/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-a-technical-consultation-paper

The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/20/made

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2023 17:55

PaperWalkAndTalk · 03/10/2023 17:51

I have a friend who is a straw-man where exactly should he go?

Well what does he identify as?

A scarecrow or a stick to beat women with?

IcakethereforeIam · 03/10/2023 17:52

Here 😊

the wizard of oz film GIF by Dominic Grijalva
PaperWalkAndTalk · 03/10/2023 17:51

I have a friend who is a straw-man where exactly should he go?

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2023 17:45

GoodOldEmmaNess · 03/10/2023 17:38

Binary male and female wards (or changing rooms) don't capture the nuance as society.

The idea that facilities should be designed in such a way as to 'capture the nuance as society' is laughable. What would it mean to design hospital facilities that 'capture nuance' (other than the choice of pictures on the walls)?
Wards are designed to to reflect objective realities. Such as clinical need, health & safety, the reality of material sex, and the reality that some men (regardless of their gender identity) are a danger to women.

If hospitals were being built to need them how many women's toilets to men's toilets would there be?

Even when working out how many portaloos you need for a festival, portaloo companies (thanks world scout jamboree for drawing my attention to this) have a formula which includes consideration for the number of women (women need considerably more provision) and the age of users (those who are elderly or very young need more provision) are calculated.

But in buildings we are stuck with this data idea of 50:50 at best and then women's facilities also get the shitty end of the shit when providing gendered (mixed sex) facilities.

It's like the dark ages and hardly progressive.

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2023 17:41

Webex · 03/10/2023 16:56

Does this mean an end to mixed sex wards more generally then? I was on a ward with men (not the ones in frocks) the last time I was in hospital. Transwomen would have made no difference they let men in anyway.

Again honestly...

I think it's more likely to result in MORE mixed sex wards because there aren't facilities available for women and it gives hospitals an excuse with tight budgets to say they can't provide single sex spaces at all.

But it looks good for the Tories at their conference.

GoodOldEmmaNess · 03/10/2023 17:38

Binary male and female wards (or changing rooms) don't capture the nuance as society.

The idea that facilities should be designed in such a way as to 'capture the nuance as society' is laughable. What would it mean to design hospital facilities that 'capture nuance' (other than the choice of pictures on the walls)?
Wards are designed to to reflect objective realities. Such as clinical need, health & safety, the reality of material sex, and the reality that some men (regardless of their gender identity) are a danger to women.

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2023 17:37

TrishTrix · 03/10/2023 16:13

I struggle with this one. Binary male and female wards (or changing rooms) don't capture the nuance as society.

I can think of several transgender acquaintances who have lived as women for a long time. They have had extensive surgery (don't know full extent of bottom, but definitely top surgery) and currently use female facilities. I worry that placing them into a male ward will place them at risk and I'm sure the announcement today will have upset them.

The health outcomes for the trans community are already poor and placing additional barriers around access is not going to help things. But equally healthcare needs to be safe for all users and simply opening the doors to female only spaces to mitigate this has not been safe / reduced accessibility to biological woman.

Do we need to move to all cubicles for toilets, changing and hospital??

Honestly?

Not my fucking problem.

They were sold a lie that they could be female. They aren't and they never were.

That's part of the issue. They were sold a fantasy that is at odds with reality and it has an impact on many many others.

It's not women who are in the wrong on this. It's the politicians that enabled it.

RedToothBrush · 03/10/2023 17:32

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 14:23

Hear, hear.

I am saying 'no'.

Not if you think your pal is lovely.
Not if your pal is only tiny.
Not if your pal has been getting away with it for years.
Not if your pal has lovely hair.
Not if your pal is very sad.
Not if your pal is very kind.
Not if your pal has the correct certification.
Not if your pal has gone to a lot of effort.
Not if your pal will be upset.

It's a 'no'.

Get over it.

Show quote history

Where were all those nice pals sticking up for women in women's sport? Where were all those nice pals they sticking up for women who were in prison having to put up with rapist? Where were all those nice pals saying that it was totally out of order to threaten rape or death to women for whatever reason? Where were all those nice pals saying that males trying to cop off with lesbians was homophobic and coercive and not acceptable?

Yeah.

Tumbleweed.

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 17:31

HootyMcBooby76 · 03/10/2023 17:29

Exactly.
Do you think there was all this hand wringing from men when women did not have access to public bathrooms until the late 1880s, or the vote, or equal pay for the same job?
Can you imagine all the men asking "what about the poor WOMEN though?".
It just didn't happen. We had to fight for our own rights and freedoms.

Trans people will just have to do the same and not expect women to squash further up to make room for them just because they don't feel "comfortable" with the men.
They don't give a shit about all the women THEY are making feel uncomfortable, so why the hell should we give a flying feck what they think?

Fucking right.

And where is the compassion and worry for women who face barriers and can't use and are self excluding? Or are scared or worried or fearful or anxious or angry or uncertain about having males in their spaces? Or being called 'bigots' or 'transphobic' for requesting single sex care, so are just going along with it despite not wanting to?

They're fucking invisible, of course.

HootyMcBooby76 · 03/10/2023 17:29

Exactly.
Do you think there was all this hand wringing from men when women did not have access to public bathrooms until the late 1880s, or the vote, or equal pay for the same job?
Can you imagine all the men asking "what about the poor WOMEN though?".
It just didn't happen. We had to fight for our own rights and freedoms.

Trans people will just have to do the same and not expect women to squash further up to make room for them just because they don't feel "comfortable" with the men.
They don't give a shit about all the women THEY are making feel uncomfortable, so why the hell should we give a flying feck what they think?

Tweddle · 03/10/2023 17:13

@TrishTrix I honestly do not care. Women are not human shields for men.

If some men feel unsafe using male facilities it is up to men to fix it not women.

GoodOldEmmaNess · 03/10/2023 17:08

I'm ok with mixed-sex wards that are billed as such, and that are mixed-sex for an identifiable clinical reason. Eg where intensive care wards are mixed in order to achieve the necessary concentration of equipment and expertise; or where mental health wards have mixed living areas (alongside separate and secure sleeping areas) to try to create a therapeutic setting.

I'm sure there are quite a few of these, but the key thing is that they will have been designed and risk-assessed as a mixed-sex environment, with measures taken accordingly. What we have at the moment is a situation in which spaces intended as single sex, and represented as single sex, are in fact mixed sex.

Froodwithatowel · 03/10/2023 17:08

Just to repeat: protecting women's privacy, dignity, consent, equality, including equality of access to health care, and their safety and freedom from a rape such as the one Baroness Nicholson dragged into the sunlight is not 'increasing barriers to access' for male people with TQ+ identities.

Their health needs and access can be met without providing them with access to non consenting female bodies. They really can.

If we're talking about issues of access, I'm more concerned at this point by the women from orthodox faiths, women who have been traumatised, CSA survivors, DV and DA survivors, women with disabilities and women who just plain don't feel safe or comfortable to receive nursing care on a ward with someone they know damn well to be a male. With nothing more than hope that he doesn't choose to make their hospital stay a whole lot horrible than it already is. That's his choice, not theirs.

Who is counting all these missing women? The ones no one seems to even know about, who don't have people rushing to offer single rooms, who don't have MPs ranting for them about bigots who don't care about their needs or understand them, who don't have very expensive tax payer funded extremist groups lobbying privately for their benefit behind the scenes?

bombastix · 03/10/2023 17:02

Yes of course the devil here is that mixed sex wards exist. So really this announcement may be of no moment in practice.

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 16:57

Webex · 03/10/2023 16:56

Does this mean an end to mixed sex wards more generally then? I was on a ward with men (not the ones in frocks) the last time I was in hospital. Transwomen would have made no difference they let men in anyway.

There shouldn't be mixed sex wards, absolutely.

But I'd prefer to be on a ward that was openly mixed sex, with all the risks clearly acknowledged, than one that purports to be 'single sex' when it isn't.