Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Trans women to be banned from female hospital wards

407 replies

Imnobody4 · 02/10/2023 22:41

Yes¡ Just done a little victory dance. I hope it really is as good as it sounds.

https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1708956051683295391?t=daMUSC8mbF_9sSi9ynIsIg&s=19

On Tuesday, Steve Barclay will announce proposals to push back against “wokery” in the health service that has led to women’s rights being increasingly sidelined.The changes would give men and women the right to be cared for on wards only shared by people of their own biological sex, and to have intimate care provided by those of the same sex.Mr Barclay said the plan would mean the return of “a common-sense approach to sex and equality”, ensuring that women’s dignity was protected and their voices heard.The proposals follow concerns from patients and staff about biological men being allowed on to women’s hospital wards. In 2021, NHS guidance said trans patients could be placed on single-sex wards on the basis of the gender with which they identified.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
RedToothBrush · 04/10/2023 10:17

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I remain unconvinced it's good news.

untranchable · 04/10/2023 10:14

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 10:04

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2023 10:00

Get men in all guises out of women's wards please!

I'm with you on that, Webex!

And yes, post-natal experiences of male visitors wandering in and stinking up the loos that were for traumatised women with surgical wounds were fucking gross.

Agree too

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2023 10:03

Webex · 04/10/2023 09:27

As we've said many times before, a clearly mixed sex space is preferable to one that purports to be single sex, but isn't.

I actually disagree with this having given it some thought. I spent nearly two weeks on a mixed sex general surgical ward and it was fucking awful. I had to walk past men to get to and from the shower I repeatedly had men hanging around with their arses hanging out the back of their gowns or (on two occasions in only two weeks) completely naked from the waist down.

I completely support single sex provision and that means no men at all regardless of how they identify but I fail to see that I was any better off in the mixed sex ward with loads of men than I would have been in a single sex ward with a risk of some trans identifying men. There would have been likely a lot less of them at least.

I think this is pretty bullshit as a policy until we have proper single sex provision, better than nothing perhaps but only fucking just. Even on a bloody post-natal ward (my other hospital experience) you have men using the toilets for their leisurely shits while women are waiting to shower and bleeding onto the floor plus they snore all night. Get men in all guises out of women's wards please!

Agreed. It's a cop out and a roll back not a step forward if we end up with more mixed sex wards which I do think is the inevitable outcome.

Women will be able to challenge even less than now, because the mantra will be just be grateful for any care at all in a race to the bottom.

We need commitment and enforcement of single sex provision from politicians. We are no where near that because the Tories are obsessed with cost cutting and Labour are obsessed with pleasing the men with hurty feelings.

Neither are addressing the inequality of healthcare provision and standards based on sex.

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2023 10:00

Get men in all guises out of women's wards please!

I'm with you on that, Webex!

And yes, post-natal experiences of male visitors wandering in and stinking up the loos that were for traumatised women with surgical wounds were fucking gross.

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2023 09:58

GoodOldEmmaNess · 04/10/2023 08:52

I think what I am trying to say is that many people view 'gender critical' women as somehow being obsessed about the fact that an indvidual is trans, unable to get past their transness. Whereas the opposite is in fact the case: they regard someone's gender identity (their trans status) as being literally irrelevant when allocation of spaces, facilities, etc are made on the basis of sex.

Edited

100%.

But the idea that women concerned with and fighting for women's rights/spaces is 'anti-trans' is an idea that has been pushed very hard, repeatedly, by various groups, activists and lobbies.

Webex · 04/10/2023 09:27

As we've said many times before, a clearly mixed sex space is preferable to one that purports to be single sex, but isn't.

I actually disagree with this having given it some thought. I spent nearly two weeks on a mixed sex general surgical ward and it was fucking awful. I had to walk past men to get to and from the shower I repeatedly had men hanging around with their arses hanging out the back of their gowns or (on two occasions in only two weeks) completely naked from the waist down.

I completely support single sex provision and that means no men at all regardless of how they identify but I fail to see that I was any better off in the mixed sex ward with loads of men than I would have been in a single sex ward with a risk of some trans identifying men. There would have been likely a lot less of them at least.

I think this is pretty bullshit as a policy until we have proper single sex provision, better than nothing perhaps but only fucking just. Even on a bloody post-natal ward (my other hospital experience) you have men using the toilets for their leisurely shits while women are waiting to shower and bleeding onto the floor plus they snore all night. Get men in all guises out of women's wards please!

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 09:22

HarlanPepper · 04/10/2023 07:32

I'm a healthcare assistant - wards in my health board in are overwhelmingly mixed sex, though within a ward, multi-bed bays are usually single sex. Usually but not always (eg in acute receiving wards, it's not always possible)

I think this is a deeply cynical announcement by the health secretary. He must know that even if it were implemented, it will have little to no impact on actual patient experience.

Show quote history

Is it high?

In January 5000 patients were in mixed sex wards

Whats admissions for a year?

In 2021/22 there were 140 million patient interactions in hospital.

Also saw this, just generally it’s so high I hadn’t thought if numbers

The work to support the estimate that the NHS sees a million people every 36 hours was undertaken more than 10 years ago. Using the methodology we have described, and with the caveats we have outlined, we estimate that NHS activity has increased to an average of 2.3 million interactions with patients every 36 hours, or a million interactions every 15 hours.

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2023 09:15

IncomingTraffic · 04/10/2023 08:26

I think that framing this all around transgender is unhelpful. All this ‘transwomen banned from female wards’ etc is a distortion.

It’s not about ‘banning’. It’s about ensuring people’s right to be treated on a single sex ward (or at least portion of the ward) and their right to be treated by an HCP of the same sex.

The fact that means that trans people will be in the ward appropriate to their sex is a different issue. The differentiating factor is sex for everyone. Same with the need for trans HCPs to disclose their sex. All HCPs must disclose their sex to patients - it’s just that it’s disproportionately trans people who want to hide it or lie about it.

The vast majority of the population is overwhelmingly in favour of single sex wards. Has been for decades. The NHS’s inability to properly provide them has been an ongoing issue, with various ministerial guarantees etc.

Similarly, I’m pretty sure that the vast majority of the British population are in support of patients being able to choose to be treated by an HCP of the same sex, especially for intimate examinations.

None of this is ‘bigotry’.

Nor is it anything to do with being taken in my awful ‘right wing’ politicians. Up until everything seemed to be about the desperate need to affirm and validate the feelings of trans people, all the parties were generally of the view that not giving people the right to single sex wards was inhumane and degrading. For example: https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2010/aug/16/government-promise-end-mixed-sex-hospital-wards. The difference tended to be that, once in power, parties were faced with the issues of ensuring that right in an under resourced NHS.

So let’s stop framing it all around trans people. They really aren’t the centre of the universe. Single sex provision in healthcare, for toileting, in sport, in rape counselling, in prisons and so on is about rights that the vast majority of people are in agreement about - people should have a right to single sex provision.

If you polled people and asked questions that didn’t centre round appeasing TRAs you’d find high degrees of consensus within the population on single sex provision.

Should a male HCP be allowed to pretend to be a woman to perform an examination on a female patient who has asked for single sex care?

Few people would say ‘oh yes. absolutely’. That’s why it matters so much that the question gets framed as ‘should transgender HCPs have to disclose their biological sex to patients?’ That centres the rights and feelings of the trans HCP and positions patients as awful bigots. But actually, few people think a biological man should be allowed to lie about his sex so he can perform a smear test on a woman. Most people feel strongly that’s a violation of the patient’s rights and bodily autonomy.

This.

DialSquare · 04/10/2023 08:57

GoodOldEmmaNess · 04/10/2023 08:52

I think what I am trying to say is that many people view 'gender critical' women as somehow being obsessed about the fact that an indvidual is trans, unable to get past their transness. Whereas the opposite is in fact the case: they regard someone's gender identity (their trans status) as being literally irrelevant when allocation of spaces, facilities, etc are made on the basis of sex.

Edited

Exactly. It's being Male and using Female provision that we have an issue with.

GodDammitCecil · 04/10/2023 08:55

GoodOldEmmaNess · 04/10/2023 08:52

I think what I am trying to say is that many people view 'gender critical' women as somehow being obsessed about the fact that an indvidual is trans, unable to get past their transness. Whereas the opposite is in fact the case: they regard someone's gender identity (their trans status) as being literally irrelevant when allocation of spaces, facilities, etc are made on the basis of sex.

Edited

So much this.

It’s what I keep saying when the issue comes up in discussion.

It’s not about trans people - it’s about male-bodied people.

I don’t give a shit about anyone’s gender identity, because gender is meaningless to me. It’s ephemeral and can be changed on a whim.

I don’t want any male person - regardless of how they identify - in my single-sex spaces.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 04/10/2023 08:53

wards in my health board in are overwhelmingly mixed sex, though within a ward, multi-bed bays are usually single sex.

Most politicians and the general public don't really know the difference between a 'ward' and a 'bay'. I have a feeling (am having breakfast - will dig out the actual document later) that single sex bays within a mixed sex ward are not a reportable breach. As long as there's a door between the bay and the rest of the ward, and the bay contains loo and washing facilities that patients can get to without entering the mixed sex space, that counts as acceptable single-sex provision. Both in policy and to the general public.

For most purposes. Places like locked mental health wards where the patients are - on the whole - more mobile and there for longer might have (and certainly need) more secure separation.

GoodOldEmmaNess · 04/10/2023 08:52

I think what I am trying to say is that many people view 'gender critical' women as somehow being obsessed about the fact that an indvidual is trans, unable to get past their transness. Whereas the opposite is in fact the case: they regard someone's gender identity (their trans status) as being literally irrelevant when allocation of spaces, facilities, etc are made on the basis of sex.

GoodOldEmmaNess · 04/10/2023 08:46

RE the framing around 'trans people', one of the messages read out on WH yesterday was something along the lines of "I would have no problem at all sharing a ward with a transwoman', which creates the illusion that the people with whom she disagrees are objecting to someone's presence on the grounds of their 'transness' rather than their maleness.
For the most part, people don't care about other people's gender identity. In a whole host of contexts, gender identity is simply a private matter that has no bearing on other people, and other people are more than happy to just live and let live. It is sex that people are concerned about. Not in any of the many cases where NHS facilities are, for good reasons, provided on a mixed-sex basis, but in the cases where, for good reasons, they are (or claim to be) provided on a single-ses basis.

IncomingTraffic · 04/10/2023 08:26

I think that framing this all around transgender is unhelpful. All this ‘transwomen banned from female wards’ etc is a distortion.

It’s not about ‘banning’. It’s about ensuring people’s right to be treated on a single sex ward (or at least portion of the ward) and their right to be treated by an HCP of the same sex.

The fact that means that trans people will be in the ward appropriate to their sex is a different issue. The differentiating factor is sex for everyone. Same with the need for trans HCPs to disclose their sex. All HCPs must disclose their sex to patients - it’s just that it’s disproportionately trans people who want to hide it or lie about it.

The vast majority of the population is overwhelmingly in favour of single sex wards. Has been for decades. The NHS’s inability to properly provide them has been an ongoing issue, with various ministerial guarantees etc.

Similarly, I’m pretty sure that the vast majority of the British population are in support of patients being able to choose to be treated by an HCP of the same sex, especially for intimate examinations.

None of this is ‘bigotry’.

Nor is it anything to do with being taken in my awful ‘right wing’ politicians. Up until everything seemed to be about the desperate need to affirm and validate the feelings of trans people, all the parties were generally of the view that not giving people the right to single sex wards was inhumane and degrading. For example: https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2010/aug/16/government-promise-end-mixed-sex-hospital-wards. The difference tended to be that, once in power, parties were faced with the issues of ensuring that right in an under resourced NHS.

So let’s stop framing it all around trans people. They really aren’t the centre of the universe. Single sex provision in healthcare, for toileting, in sport, in rape counselling, in prisons and so on is about rights that the vast majority of people are in agreement about - people should have a right to single sex provision.

If you polled people and asked questions that didn’t centre round appeasing TRAs you’d find high degrees of consensus within the population on single sex provision.

Should a male HCP be allowed to pretend to be a woman to perform an examination on a female patient who has asked for single sex care?

Few people would say ‘oh yes. absolutely’. That’s why it matters so much that the question gets framed as ‘should transgender HCPs have to disclose their biological sex to patients?’ That centres the rights and feelings of the trans HCP and positions patients as awful bigots. But actually, few people think a biological man should be allowed to lie about his sex so he can perform a smear test on a woman. Most people feel strongly that’s a violation of the patient’s rights and bodily autonomy.

Nick Clegg confirms promise to end mixed-sex hospital wards | Health policy | The Guardian

Labour calls coalition plans 'hollow' and an 'empty gesture' following previous attempts to stamp out practice

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2010/aug/16/government-promise-end-mixed-sex-hospital-wards

ResisterRex · 04/10/2023 08:04

Hoardasurass · 04/10/2023 07:47

It gets better
Patients could be given right to know if their doctor is transgender https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12590633/Patients-given-right-know-doctor-transgender-government-crackdown-NHS-wokery.html?ito=native_share_article-nativemenubutton

The details of this will be ones to pore over

RedToothBrush · 04/10/2023 07:57

Could.

Not will.

It's just hot air right now.

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2023 07:39

As we've said many times before, a clearly mixed sex space is preferable to one that purports to be single sex, but isn't.

HarlanPepper · 04/10/2023 07:32

bombastix · 03/10/2023 17:02

Yes of course the devil here is that mixed sex wards exist. So really this announcement may be of no moment in practice.

I'm a healthcare assistant - wards in my health board in are overwhelmingly mixed sex, though within a ward, multi-bed bays are usually single sex. Usually but not always (eg in acute receiving wards, it's not always possible)

I think this is a deeply cynical announcement by the health secretary. He must know that even if it were implemented, it will have little to no impact on actual patient experience.

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 07:05

GodDammitCecil · 04/10/2023 07:03

To be honest, I don’t know what either of you are posting about, and I’m not usually obtuse.

Maybe take it to PM. 💐

God no. Repetition here is enough

Just ignore

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 07:04

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 03/10/2023 23:20

This is why its going to take more than clarification of policy to make single sex wards actually single sex.

Gender ideology has been accepted uncritically into every part of the NHS. The government will have to make sure that every arms length body, every union and every manager understands the law as it is, not how they want it to be.

Show quote history

We’re so swamped with how engrained this is, in so many institutions

It’s really concerning

GodDammitCecil · 04/10/2023 07:03

To be honest, I don’t know what either of you are posting about, and I’m not usually obtuse.

Maybe take it to PM. 💐

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 06:58

EarthSight · 03/10/2023 23:26

Talk about being deliberately obtuse. I assume this works for you when you're challenged?

Show quote history

I straight up don’t know what you keep posting about.

What you are meant to be challenging or whatever. You just keep just coming back with insults and not saying much

Maybe just clarify or move on.

EarthSight · 03/10/2023 23:26

EasternStandard · 03/10/2023 20:21

Well you made me laugh at least

You seem worked up about something but who knows what

Show quote history

Talk about being deliberately obtuse. I assume this works for you when you're challenged?