Trans women to be banned from female hospital wards

Even if all parties are committed to single sex wards, its going to take more than a strongly worded policy to change anything in practice.

We need to assess the privacy element in the GRA, the number of people who have changed their gender on NHS records and how many people have their gender recorded as their sex. We need to look at every policy in every trust to ensure that gender isnt prioritised over sex. And crucially, train staff to understand the importance of sex and how that differs from gender. Theres been a massive leap from referring to a patent with their preferred pronouns to allowing men to be in womens wards if that what they want.

Part of the problem is that government and hospitals dont know the numbers they are dealing with, and how and who to treat as a 'person with gender'. Theres about 7,000 people with a GRC, 260,000 recorded themselves as a type of trans on the census, an unknown number who have changed their 'gender' on their medical records, none need ever to have surgery or medical treatment or look anything like their preferred sex/gender. So a patient arriving on a ward may recorded as female, but is obviously male when they arrive. How can the hospital manage that situation?

I suspect the reason its been left this long to sort out, is because its too much of a problem to sort out.

No understanding of the concerns that women have at all. Just vile abusive hate. No wonder women want to keep the rights that protect them.

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1709154647775035549

Quite. We weren’t consulted when they started putting men on women’s wards in the first place. Why bother now?

Genuine transperson?

It doesn’t matter what you have chopped off or stuck on; you never belong in any single sex spaces of the opposite to your biological sex.

Thankfully common sense seems to be returning.

Women's rights are not a culture war. Nor is the safety of children. Or the truth.

IMO it doesn't matter what is driving it and if it wrong foots Labour, then so what? They only have themselves to blame.

Yes, I agree motivation isn't that important.

A lot of people parroting, "it's a culture war distraction".

Well OK, let's assume that the Tory Party are cynically using this issue, and don't actually care about it.

That says something about the integrity of the Tory Party, but it says nothing about the policy itself. It can still be that it's a real issue, and political parties should be properly concerned with responding to it.

Well, I and many others do mind any TW being given access to women's spaces. Pray tell how do you know they are genuine? How do you know they have had the full sherbangle? Around 90% of TW do not have their penis and testicles removed.

There is zero evidence to support that TW with or without their male genitalia are unsafe in men's toilets or anywhere else divided by biological sex. If TW don't want to share with men that is their problem and up to them to suggest alternative provision which does not include what is provided for women.

Frankly I don't fucking care if you or TW think it is inappropriate for them to be in men's spaces, the women's are not for their use and it is a whole lot more than inappropriate for them to use them.

Try thinking about women and girls and putting them first for once instead of wringing your hands over men and their wants.

Why the heck do they need a consultation? Just bloody well get on with it!

Yes, the "distraction" is a distraction by activists to prevent this policy from happening.

Argue against the actual policy (which they know will be difficult) instead of trying to argue against the party etc.

This is a good thing, because it might force Labour to accept the change too.

And in no way is that an ' anti trans' statement. A transwoman is covered in the EA from discrimination just as a cross dressing sex offender is, on the basis of gender reassignment.

There's no good or bad moral judgement within being 'trans'.

I dont think I need to explain or fully understand what I think a genuine transperson is, but I don't think a genuine transperson is a cross dressing sex offender.

If you are going to make comments about 'genuine transpeople', surely you do need to understand what you mean by this term and explain it to those who are not sure whether these mythical creatures actually exist.

Nobody is literally born in the wrong body. So what is genuine about a 'genuine transperson' which makes them distinct from a crossdresser or a male who is aroused by the thought of himself as a woman or a mentally unwell man who genuinely believes he is a woman? What are the objective criteria for someone to be considered a 'genuine transperson'?

On one point I am in agreement with trans activists: just because a man is a sex offender doesn't mean he isn't trans.

Trans people are people and just as subject to failings as others. Transwomen are male and just as likely to be sex offenders as other males.

And what "population size" estimate were they using in that source?

Because I think that side of it may be controversial.

Well that problem already exists when they put actual men on women's wards.

But in your post you said you were concerned about your friends being "forced" to be accommodated with other women not that you had any concerns about the women they would be accommodated with.

If labour had a really clear strong view on this they would have my vote

Well then it’s an easy fix for Labour given they’re ahead of the polls in everything else; come out and say the same (and what a woman is while they’re at it)

Tumbleweed so far…

I think this will be about as effective as the plan to end mixed sex wards.

IMO it doesn't matter what is driving it and if it wrong foots Labour, then so what? They only have themselves to blame.

Public sentiment has shifted in a short space of time

We have Isla Bryson to thank for that, look at Sturgeon

It’s coming up more now because men become more emboldened each year. And because they ramp up threats and violence to women who say no.

Politicians will do more the noisier we are. Well not the left, or the media there either

I'm not sure what you are poking at my comment for? I said I was pleased they had been banned from hospitals. I said women's rights shouldn't be sacrificed. The bit is the middle was acknowledging it is a difficult situation for genuine trans people. I dont think I need to explain or fully understand what I think a genuine transperson is, but I don't think a genuine transperson is a cross dressing sex offender. I don't know how many transwomen are killed by their partners, but you could look it up if you were interested? Yes our safe spaces need protection, especially hospital wards, prison cells, and sports teams. I just don't think we need to be completely anti trans to be a feminist.

I completely agree with you @OldCrone and thankyou for putting more succinctly than I did :)

In my view this is being driven by politics. The Conservatives have dragged their feet over this and other issues for a long time but now, in the last Conference season before an election, there's a flurry of this and other related proposals.

I don't think it's kite-flying to check out support in the Conservative ranks. I think it's to wrong-foot Labour causing them either to take positions (something they're loath to do) or to be seen to run away from the issues while the public look on.

I agree with you that anyone who wants a healthy, working body part removed cannot be considered to be completely rational. This applies equally whether the body part in question is a penis or a limb. But we are told that the people who do this are not mentally ill (which is what I was alluding to in my earlier post). Yet at the same time we're told that they deserve our sympathy and support because they are mentally fragile and vulnerable.

Either (a) these people are mentally stable and have made a rational decision to modify their bodies and should have considered the consequences of this modification before setting out on this path (although the question remains as to whether a rational person would choose to do this at all) or (b) they are mentally unwell and deserving of our sympathy but nobody should have suggested to them that extreme body modification would help their mental health let alone carry out these extreme surgeries.

What it can't be is (c) they are mentally stable but they deserve our sympathy because they had no choice but to modify their bodies. That makes no sense at all.

But regardless of their mental state, no male belongs in a female hospital ward whether he has had his penis removed or not.

Well for a start the women on the ward would wonder why there was a man there.

What about Scotland?